Ep 519: Authentic Connection & Communication With Dr. Jonathan Marion

Connecting and communicating with family, friends, coworkers, and partners can be challenging. Sorting through emotions and the meanings we attach to interactions often adds confusion. In this episode, Dr. Jannine Krause chats with Dr. Jonathan Marion—an award-winning cultural anthropology professor, coach, author, speaker, and accomplished Brazilian Zouk dancer. Together, they explore the intricacies of jealousy as an unmet need, the art of authentic connection, and how dancing with a partner mirrors deeper life lessons about communication and presence.

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Key Takeaways:

• Jealousy Signals Unmet Needs: Instead of suppressing jealousy, recognize it as a sign to reflect on what’s missing in your life or relationship.
• Presence Is Powerful: Authentic connections require focusing on the moment, whether in a conversation or while dancing with a partner.
• Communication Starts with Calm: Deep breathing can ease tension before addressing challenging topics or approaching someone new.
• Clarity Over Assumptions: Thoughtfully examine and question the narratives in your head that might hinder open communication.

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Resources from the Show:

• Dr. Jonathan Marion’s Website: stepsalongtheway.global
• Set Up a Chat with Dr. Jonathan Marion: Contact Us

Join the conversation and explore how to enhance your connections by living and communicating more authentically.

Our Partners

Podcast Transcript

3:21 – Jealousy as an unmet need

8:26 – Keeping up with the Joneses and external measures

12:51 – Relationship jealousy

18:26 – Most powerful thing we do in a relationship

19:40 – Mis-communication

25:20 – Approaching someone with confidence by being present

34:19 – Societal pressures

38:00 – Recognizing the good and the bad 

47:22 – Connection Vs. control

49:25 – Lack of communication

57:33 – Mismatch theory

102:55 – How to work with Dr. Marion

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[Preview] You know, it’s not about being right or wrong.

It’s how can I understand where someone else is coming from?

And I don’t have to agree with them, but can I understand?

And if we can understand each other, now we’re communicating.

What gets in the way more than anything else

are the stories we’re telling ourselves, right?

That they’re gonna judge me in this way.

I should show up in this way.

They should do the other thing.

The music should be different.

people around us should be doing something different.

I’m afraid I’m gonna be judged for how I do X, Y, or Z.

And so we’re all in our heads with these,

how things should be,

and should is fighting with what is.

And as long as we’re in our mental space,

we’re not fully present.

And so that’s where I think different types

of embodiment practices and mindfulness practices

can be so important

because what puts you right here and now?

So sensorial things are fantastic

’cause we cannot, our senses,

our body is only here and now.

It’s not in the past, it’s not in the future.

JANNINE: Hey, Health junkies, on this episode of the Health Fix

Podcast, I’ve brought back Dr. Jonathan Marion

and we’re going to be talking about jealousy

as an unmet need.

We’re gonna be talking about communicating

between couples, love interests, family and friends.

We even discuss communicating while dancing.

As Dr. Jonathan Marion is a Brazilian zuke dancer,

in addition to being an award-winning cultural anthropology

professor and author, a coach, consultant and speaker.

Now Dr. Jonathan is all about spreading the word

on the importance of living, connecting,

and communicating authentically.

And with his work as a transformational life coach,

he’s aiming to be a catalyst for exactly such transformations and really the idea of communicating

better. I enjoy talking with Dr. Jonathan and I love his insights because communication is a

tough thing and it’s not something we’re really taught and I think we should be taught this as

Kindergardeners because it would have saved me so much grief as I got older. I don’t know about you.

So while you listen to this podcast, I hope we inspire you to assess your own relationships

and those thoughts on repeat in your head. The idea of where could you upgrade your communication?

All right, let’s reintroduce you to Dr. Jonathan Marion.

[Intro] Welcome to The Health Fix Podcast where health junkies get their weekly

fix of tips, tools and techniques to have limitless energy, sharp minds and fit, physiques or life.

JANNINE: Dr. Jonathan Marion, welcome back to The Health Fix Podcast.

DR. MARION: Thank you so much for having me back, Jannine. It’s a pleasure to be here.

JANNINE: Well, you know, we just keep having such great conversations. I can’t let it go. And there’s so

much information that you have that is not being talked about as much in these kind of ways. So,

We got to talk about it.

So jealousy as an unmet need, so fascinating.

Tell us more, give us a scoop.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so it’s just one model.

And I think that’s really important to say,

I’m not sharing anything as the truth

or the only way to think about or understand this.

But something which had really resonated for me

when it was first presented in that way was that idea of the jealousy is an unmet need.

And a great example of this is if I’m given my favorite pizza in the world and it’s extra

large and I’ve eaten as much as I can possibly eat and I’ve probably already eaten a slice too

many and I already have to unbutton the pants and I’m already uncomfortable walking home and I’m

I’m like, why did I do that?

I’m not jealous if someone else has five pizzas in their hands and is going home with it to

share with the family.

And so it’s not about how much do I have.

It’s, do I see someone else with something that I feel is a lack for me?

So if I’m hungry, if I’m craving pizza and someone else has it, sure, then it’s like,

Wait a minute, I like pizza and I actually, you know,

it’s a comfort food and I could use that right now.

But if I’m full with whatever it is,

then there is no craving.

So that’s the underlying idea of jealousy as an unmet need.

JANNINE: Mm, okay.

Okay, I can see this.

I can see this even in my world, you know,

definitely looking at different things

from like views on social media to followers,

which would be certain things like that

where we’d be like, “Oh, I wish I could get that.”

And then we’d have pouty face usually, somewhere in there.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I think there’s also then that issue

of there’s also domain specificity, right?

So it’s what are the things that matter to us?

It’s not, this isn’t needs in the sense of, you know,

actual survival needs.

Those exist, those come first,

and you know, that’s just very human.

But there are other human needs that have to do with comfort and with connection and with belonging.

And if we feel all of those things, then there is no issue with the fact that other people feel them

or even someone who you normally receive them from is providing it to someone else.

You know, a child, we talked last time about attachment, styles and attachment theory.

And obviously anyone who’s interested, we have a couple of great episodes for them that they can go

listen to. But to bring that back in, if a child is securely attached, if they feel like they get

the attention they need from their parents, then it doesn’t bother them when a sibling also gets

attention. It’s when they either don’t feel they can trust it, they feel it can be pulled away.

You know, that’s when all of a sudden there’s some type of insecurity there. And it’s a very

parallel idea.

JANNINE: Mm.

Definitely makes sense when we start thinking about childhood stuff though, right?

Like a lot of this jealousy comes from way back, I’m guessing, a lot of the roots of

the unmet needs.

Yeah, or can it develop too?

I mean, I can see how it could develop as we get older too, but are there some predominant

ones from childhood?

DR. MARION: So I think that idea of, can I even count on another person, which has to do with when

we had talked about secure attachment versus avoidant or anxious attachment styles, that

relational aspect, because we’re social animals.

And as you know, my background before I moved into life coaching and consulting and speaking

was in academia, but as a cultural anthropologist. And while there is no universal way that people

around the world and across time do things, there are universals because we’re all human.

And so that need for connection, both at a survival level, but also just at a social

engagement and thriving level, those are very real needs. And there’s lots of research in

different branches of psychology and so on that are very impertinent, but I think it gets back to

where do we start to learn? Where do we start to imprint? What’s the world like around us?

It’s in our childhood and it’s not just the formal lessons. It’s the things we pick up from

our social surround, the things that we internalize without even being aware that we are,

which make those things very resistant to change later because they’re unconscious thoughts later.

So that’s where I think a lot of the stuff sticks from childhood in a different way.

JANNINE: That makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, if we think of adulthood, right, like there’s

childhood, there’s adulthood. We look at adulthood and where a lot of people get hung up is kind of

keeping up with the Joneses, right? Like so-and-so just got a brand new XYZ kind of car and I’m still

driving my, you know, 10 year old car.

Oh, you know, that kind of thing.

Where would we put those kind of things in terms of unmet needs when it comes to

material objects in that case?

DR. MARION: Yeah, I think that’s such an important question, Jannine.

And I thank you for posing it.

And I think this can go in a couple of different directions, right?

One is what is the society we live in and that so much of what we’re growing up around,

what we’re exposed to in social media and the like, has to do with sort of these external

markers of accomplishment.

And so I think that it becomes a sociological concept of the looking glass self, which is

We don’t even look at ourselves the way we see ourselves.

We don’t even look at ourselves the way other people see us.

We look at ourselves the way we think other people see us.

And so when they’ve done, you know,

really compelling, you know, experiments or studies

where someone describes themselves to a sketch artist

versus someone else describes them,

when we describe ourselves,

we don’t look as happy, as healthy, as pretty.

We’re so self-critical.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah.

DR. MARION: So that’s definitely one piece of that,

just what you said, the keeping up with the Joneses,

the external measures.

And as I know you’ll recall from our very first conversation,

that’s part of where in my being strategy,

Because again, we’re human beings, not human doings.

Yes, we begin where we are for B,

but the E was explore where you wanna go.

And all too often, it’s about what we’ve internalized

as an expectation.

I should get the promotion.

I should pursue the opportunity to take that other job.

Is that really what serves you?

Is that really what is most meaningful

and fulfilling to you in the end?

And I think we jump over that step all too often in a society that keeps score by external measures.

JANNINE: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, incredibly, incredibly. Yeah.

It’s an interesting concept to think about how we see ourselves versus how people see ourselves.

I imagine that if we took a survey, it would be wildly different in a lot of aspects.

Have you ever done anything like that within any of your research or any of your, within your clients?

DR. MARION: Yeah, not I haven’t done it as part of my own academic research. Certainly.

It was very interesting because I had been a university faculty member for 20

years. And so for different student projects, especially like say in the body

and identity class I used to teach, there would sometimes be things. So were

those things that I would say stand up to, you know, publication, scientific

standards, not so much. At the same time, part of teaching them was trying to

make sure they did real research.

And so I don’t think they had, you know, sampling-wise,

you could generalize, but we do see things

that are indicative of, you know, these trends.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah.

You know, it’s so like in the world of like,

my thoughts are really not mine.

I’ve like, you know, thought them over and over,

but really are they real.

It’s so interesting to start to think like,

does anything matter anymore?

But what I truly want, you know?

And going down those lines of jealousy, you know,

one of the other things that I find is something common

as we get older too is jealousy and relationships

and jealousy that shows up there.

Now let’s dive into that a little bit

because for relationships, I know a lot of people,

myself included will start to analyze like,

why am I jealous of this?

Why am I even like, why is this coming up for me?

And of course, diving into the unmet need is fascinating

when you’re like, why am I getting jealous

that my husband’s doing X, Y, or Z, or whatever it may be.

So, or why is it, you know, what’s a big one, honestly?

Why, why my jealousy and my husband’s losing weight faster than me?

That happens for a lot of these in my, my world.

But anyway, I’ll let you take it from here.

Relationship jealousy.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I think it shows up in different ways, right?

And I’ll start with the example you just gave.

because it has to do with, you know, here are the people who I’m closest to and that matter to me.

And that I’m trying to sort of co-create with. And, you know, when one thing comes easier for

someone, it’s not we resent that it’s easier for them. It’s, well, why?

too, so that I can stay in lockstep, so that I can put my attention to things that I want

to between us and not feel I’m being left behind.

JANNINE: Yeah. 

DR. MARION: And I think that an important distinction, so for anyone who’s really interested in all

the emotion work, Brené Brown’s Atlas of the Heart is a fantastic resource. And she makes an

an important distinction between envy and jealousy,

and that envy is sort of a one way thing.

It’s I want that for myself.

Jealousy is sort of like a three way thing.

It’s like I want it and I don’t think

someone else should have it.

I’m exaggerating, I’m oversimplifying,

but there’s a little more going on there.

And so I think that, and why I’m bringing that up

is what you’re just speaking about,

I think is the envy version, right?

like I’m envious that they can lose weight that fast,

but I don’t begrudge them that.

I just wish I could too.

JANNINE: Right.

DR. MARION: It’s not how dare you.

It’s why not me too, right?

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah.

I think you’re right, yeah.

DR. MARION: By and large, right?

Whereas the jealousy version,

I think can be a little more insidious.

And so in a relationship dynamic,

someone who has, say, a best friend,

but who is of whatever gender,

the person dates or is romantically attracted to.

And if it’s not, so if I have a partner

who is only interested in men,

then it doesn’t bother me

when she’s spending a lot of time with her girlfriends.

But of course, this can go in any parameter.

The minute that it’s spending time with male friends,

if that bothers me any, what is that about?

And that’s why I think the pizza example comes back in,

because if I feel I’m getting all the attention

that I feel I need, all the reassurance I feel I need,

then why does it really bother me

that this person is spending time with anyone else

other than maybe some cultural ideas

that we don’t like to acknowledge

but are really about like ownership or possession

of another human being?

And if we can recognize, wait a minute,

I have everything from this person that I’m wanting

the rest of it’s my stuff,

The rest of it’s for me, whether to sit down in journal,

bring to a therapist, talk to a coach,

or just acknowledge it’s mine

and they didn’t do anything and it’s not for them to deal with,

is very different from,

you’re spending time with this person

and I don’t feel that I’m getting the attention

that I am craving from you.

That’s a very different scenario.

JANNINE: Right.

DR. MARION: And that’s where it’s about an unmet need.

If I’m getting the attention, not that I feel I’m owed,

that’s a very problematic framework.

If we’re talking about authentic relating,

it’s not owed in the sense of you’re obligated.

It’s a chosen commitment.

It’s we owe this to each other

because we choose to give this to each other.

Well, have I spoken my need?

Have I said, for whatever reason, I’m insecure right now,

I have something else going on in my life, you know, unrelated, but where I feel I need

more support.

If I haven’t shared that, you know, the other person can’t meet it.

And that’s where we go back to some of those ideas from attachment we spoke about.

You know, are you hiding from putting the actual need out there because you’re afraid

it won’t be met?

JANNINE: Yeah, I could see that in a lot of folks.

I can see that in a lot of folks.

’cause you might think about a romantic relationship,

for example, perfect thing.

Like, can that person actually fulfill?

Can they actually do this?

Can they actually give me the love I need

or something of that nature or its attention?

I think a lot of it’s attention

’cause everyone’s busy right these days.

And careers will pull a lot of people

from their relationships.

DR. MARION: Absolutely, and I think, at least for me personally

and what I’ve seen, I don’t think we talk about enough,

but in a lot of ways, the most powerful

and important thing we do in relationships is bear witness.

We bear witness to someone else’s life.

They bear witness to ours.

And so that’s where that busyness can really get in the way.

if I’m so busy at work, if I’m so busy with other commitments, if I’m so busy, you know,

keeping up with the social calendar, if I’m so busy taking the kids to different activities,

that I’m not witnessing those I’m in relationship with, and I don’t feel that they have time to

witness me, then there’s something that often feels like it’s really missing.

JANNINE: Yeah. I’m like, I’m thinking about what I hear, right? From patients of mine in terms of the

too busy, but also the like, not interest in, in certain activities, like sharing time together,

you know, even sexual activities too. Like, a lot of folks will, will start to think, well,

my husband’s probably cheating on me because he’s spending more time doing x, y, or z. And it kind

kind of comes out as a jealousy.

And then sometimes I’ve seen it go pretty south

in terms of I accused my husband of cheating on me

with a coworker when it was really they were working

on a project and, you know, let’s help save people

from these things.

What do they need to be thinking about

when these kind of things go down

when they start thinking about jealousy?

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I think that example is clearly

about miscommunication, right?

or misunderstanding, we don’t have a bridge

if we don’t have communication.

And

again, to me, it’s when we live,

connect and communicate authentically.

That’s what sends out ripples.

That’s what, if you show up in that way,

I’m not saying it’s, you know, a panacea.

I’m not saying that every time you show up in that way,

it’s guaranteeing a result.

But you’re at least creating a bridge for the possibility.

If you in that scenario say,

I know this sounds terrible,

but I think you’re having an affair.

Could be denied.

It could be a very straightforward explanation.

It could be that they are,

but there’s no chance to actually figure out

what’s going on for yourself,

let alone then respond deliberately, what do I want to do

if you are just basing it on assumptions?

So let me give an example.

Just a little less than a year ago,

I arrived at a dance and embodiment marathon

and retreat in Bali.

And one of the instructors there,

I was like, they had said, you know,

introduce themselves, talk some stuff,

and said, anyone have any questions for them?

And I, you know, sort of said, I do.

And they wanted me to ask, I said,

let’s wait for people to disperse.

And we did.

And they said, what’s going on?

And I said, look, chances are this is a story in my head,

and I fully acknowledge that.

But I need to check with you.

Have I said or done anything over the last year

that’s upset you?

And if so, would you be so kind as to share that with me

so I can try and make amends?

And they looked at me like I was crazy.

They’re like, what are you talking about?

Like, we’re friends.

You’ve been at my mother’s restaurant in Rio de Janeiro.

We’ve stayed together with a mutual friend in San Jose.

Like, where the hell is this coming from?

And I pointed out to them that I had asked them to dance

at, I think it was three or four events

on at least two continents over the preceding year.

Might have been three continents at that point.

And every time it was sort of,

oh, I need a break right now, I’m going to get water

after this, I’m DJing next.

And again, any one of those, sure, it’s super reasonable.

But it was the pattern to me that it had happened

over a year, I’m like, this feels like there’s something there.

but I also recognize that might be just in my head.

I’m never gonna know that if I go into this next 10 days

where this person is a facilitator of this retreat I’m on

and I’m assuming that they’re upset with me.

JANNINE:  Right.

DR. MARION: And so I just put it in front of them

and they’re like, that was just chance I didn’t realize

and no, we’re friends, we’re good.

And thank you for asking

because they said it gave them an idea of how to approach someone else.

And it was super funny because I then said to her,

“Okay, so I do want to dance with you.

I’m not going to ask you at this event,

but if you’re ever free and available, please let me know.”

We didn’t dance at that event last fall in Bali.

We finally, what was it,

Easter weekend in the Netherlands this year,

we’re at an event where she’s like,

Let’s dance.

And then she was also kind enough to help demonstrate

at a workshop I was teaching

on authentic presence and connection for the dancers.

And I could use the example of checking

what my assumptions were, the stories in my own head.

Don’t believe your own stories.

JANNINE: So huge, so huge to hear that.

Interesting side note with dancing.

And yeah, like someone not dancing

with you multiple times,

I think I would have the same thoughts in my head too.

I mean, it’s a logical thought.

Now, where were you when I was like 16 or 15

or whatever and we had these dances and things?

It’s interesting you mentioned the communication

and authentic communication with dance.

It looks a lot like when people are dancing

that they are communicating, right?

But when you go to say a regular event,

I just went to a fair this weekend,

people were dancing, some country dancing kind of things,

(laughs)

maybe they were drunk,

but it was a little bit of a disconnect going on.

I wanna switch it just for a second just to get your insight

because I think a lot of people like the idea of dancing,

but connecting with their partner can be a little trickier.

What would be like connecting with your partner 101

at like an event to dance, like, what do you do?

How do you slide in there all swave like?

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I think this is such a great example

of what we’re talking about because what gets in the way,

more than anything else, are the stories

we’re telling ourselves, right?

That they’re gonna judge me in this way.

I should show up in this way.

They should do the other thing.

The music should be different.

People around us should be doing something different.

I’m afraid I’m going to be judged for how I do X, Y, or Z.

Right.

And so we’re all in our heads with these, how things should be.

And should is fighting with what is.

And as long as we’re in our mental space, we’re not fully present.

And so that’s where I think different types of embodiment practices and mindfulness

practices can be so important because what puts you right here and now?

So, sensorial things are fantastic because we cannot, our senses, our body is only here and now.

It’s not in the past, it’s not in the future.

So, whether it’s, I’m going to pay super attention to every nuance of the color of my partner’s hair.

Because no one’s hair is just one flat color.

True.

Um, I mean, there’s so many little gradations, depending how the light hits it.

whether it’s I’m going to pay super attention to the texture of their shirt wherever my hand’s touching it.

Whether it’s I’m just going to pay attention to the texture of the ridges of my fingertips as I’m walking up to approach them.

Just something that makes you be right here and now is the best place to start.

Another idea that I think is really important is if we have any stress around it, one of the

I think well-intended, but silliest things I’ve heard is when people say, you know, if you’re stressed, take a deep breath.

If you’re stressed, you’re already holding things in.

Exhale as deeply as you can.

Exhale, breathe out all the air, now take a deep breath, now pay attention to a sense, now approach the person.

And after that, I think it’s like any other communication.

communication, it’s different in that it’s not on verbal and there’s, you know, an entire

set of nuances that are different, but to the extent of if I’m truly trying to engage in an exchange in a conversation of some nature,

I ask a question and

I wait for an answer.

Too many times we’re like, okay, I have to be doing something.

And so whether we’re the person leading or following,

or if it’s in a dance context where it’s not those rules,

but we’re just dancing in the same space,

like why am I doing whatever I’m doing?

Is it because I feel like I’m supposed to?

Like I should be doing something.

Like I need to keep responding.

They’re gonna think I don’t know what I’m doing.

I’m afraid I’m gonna be late and so I’m gonna rush.

So one of the ideas that I first heard when I was in my coach training was the idea of waiting, right?

Wait. But wait, meaning why am I talking?

JANNINE: Okay.

Is there an actual purpose or is it I’m filling space, right?

And we can translate the same thing into how we connect non-verbally.

The talking now is nonverbal. It’s with movement. But why am I moving? Why am I moving the way I am relative to this other person?

And can I wait until I have a reason? So I’ve shifted my weight and we’re connected in some way.

I don’t know when they’re going to shift theirs. I’m not going to try and physically move someone else.

I’m going to move myself and because we’re connected, they’ll feel it. We all do this all the time when,

time when whether it’s with a kid, a romantic partner, a friend, we walk down the street

holding hands.

JANNINE: Yeah.

DR. MARION: We feel when one person accelerates, when one person stops, when one person turns, you

know, at a slight arc or angle, like it’s very natural.

And we don’t try and move the other person.

We move ourselves, but by staying connected, they feel it.

And the other person doesn’t get so anxious.

Oh my God.

What if they actually slow down?

am I going to miss it? No, I’m connected to them. I feel it. And so again, I think our

thoughts get the better of us. We get anxious about what’s going to happen as opposed to

just being present with what is.

JANNINE: Tapping into your senses, it sounds like is the best way to be present in this case.

DR. MARION: I think it’s the easiest because again, your senses can only be right here and now.

JANNINE: True. True. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we tie this back to jealousy? If we go back in and go,

okay, sensing, sensing, because a lot of people will pop into the jealousy realm,

sensing something, right? And using, I think it’s sense, but then thought coming into it.

What’s your thought on that when you start thinking that realm?

DR. MARION: Sure. So I think you’re so spot on that the relationship of the senses because

yes, there’s what am I feeling, but feeling can also imply an emotion. There’s also just

what am I sensing? Like literally what’s the sensorial experience? So is there a, you know,

a knot in my stomach? Is that what it feels like? Does it feel like my chest is constricted?

does it feel like the back of my neck is tense?

Like, what am I actually feeling?

And then, okay, what’s triggering that?

And so, Susan David and her amazing work also regarding emotions.

And the idea that no emotion is good or bad,

it’s just a signal that something matters to us.

And so I think that’s where this ties in,

because what am I actually sensing in the sense of what are, am I actually feeling in my body?

What are the emotions then? What are the feelings that come with that?

Then I can say, “Okay, and what are the stories I’m telling myself about that?”

But I can then bring all of those to the other person. Again, if this is about authentic

living, connecting, communicating, we can’t do it in isolation. So look, I don’t know what’s going on

with you. I’m not saying this any of this is deliberate or you’re even responsible for, but I have had

a knot in my stomach since this happened the other day. I’m feeling really unappreciated or taken for

granted and I have this story that you actually care about that person more than me and how

what you do makes them feel more than you care about how it makes me feel. That’s just what’s going

on for me and you know I just want to share that and find out from you like what’s really going on

and see if there’s a way that you know we can find a middle ground that works for both of us.

JANNINE: Makes sense. Makes sense. Back to communication. Back to communication.

So we talked about a few of like some of the unmet needs. What are some of the other ones I

haven’t brought up in terms of common unmet needs that provoke jealousy?

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DR. MARION: It’s a little tricky because everyone’s their own individual person.

At the same time, there are real things around finances, around what counts as…

Status is the wrong word, but like what counts as respectable within a given context.

And so that can be, you know, from your family.

It can be from your religion.

It can be from, you know, a larger, you know, ethnic background.

And so a lot of those things are needs of like.

Our society, for example, tells us that money matters.

And so you may have a job that you very much enjoy what you do, but because you’re not being paid very highly, you’re you can question, you know, does what I do really matter.

Is it actually that valuable?

if the way that I’m looking at it, value is only attributed to by money.

So maybe it’s not that valuable if people aren’t willing to actually pay for it,

in which case, then what does that say about what I do and what I care about?

Maybe it doesn’t make a difference.

Like you can go down the rabbit hole real fast with things like that.

JANNINE: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think about that, like in terms of jealousy, because I’m going, okay, you can feel it in your body,

right? You can feel it emotionally, you can feel it maybe even like sweating. You know,

maybe there’s maybe there’s a pit in the stomach kind of thing. And then yeah, you can think about

it and be like, why am I freaking out on this? I mean, I would imagine two past needs like past,

past like issues, not past issues, but maybe like past traumas that are bringing up another need

too. In that case.

DR. MARION: Yeah. Or why is that being triggered? Because it’s something where there’s a history that that

hasn’t been met, right? So it may not even be that it hasn’t been met right now, but there’s

that anxiety that it’s not going to be. And so again, that could be, you know, at work,

you have typically contributed in ways that don’t get acknowledged and other people get credit

that you don’t get. And so we all want to be acknowledged. We all want to be recognized for what

what we do, especially when we care about what we do.

And that can be, I actually care about the outcome.

It could be, I just take pride in doing my best job.

There isn’t a one size fits all here,

but when we don’t get that acknowledgement,

yeah, that’s a real need.

Like we all want to matter.

And when we don’t get the signals that we do,

that can be problematic.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s true.

The matter, I think that is the heart of the matter,

totally pun intended here.

Absolutely, is wanting to matter,

wanting to feel special, wanting to feel needed,

wanting to feel loved.

That would, that makes so much sense, makes so much sense.

Now, another thing you had mentioned

is opportunities and constraints to everything.

And like, is something good?

Is it bad?

And I think it’s a great segue now into that conversation.

Let’s talk a little bit about the good and bad of things

because I think to a point, jealousy is good

in a way that you can see you want more

or there’s a need right now,

you know there’s a need underneath that jealousy.

So now that’s an open door to conversation.

But where are some other things

where we can see opportunities and constraints

and not necessarily good or bad?

DR. MARION: Sure, so I think that people mean well

and are really developing or trying to grow

in a very positive direction when they say

there’s good and bad to everything.

Because they’re recognizing it’s not either or.

They’re recognizing and creating some space

for the duality of life.

At the same time, I think they’re still falling prey

to sort of a conceptual trap

that anything is inherently good or bad.

Right? Things can feel good or bad. That’s very different. But is it good or bad? And I’m not saying that there aren’t true tragedies. There are absolutely tragedies. Unfortunately, they happen around the world all the time. They’re happening today.

you know, large scale, small scale, I’m not talking about that.

Bad things don’t happen in that sense.

But it’s not if we just look at it as what’s the good part?

What’s the bad part?

Then at most we can be like, okay, we’ve acknowledged the bad and okay,

we recognize there’s some good too.

And that serves some value.

That’s I think a part of what.

a well thought out gratitude practices, a well thought out gratitude practice isn’t toxic

positivity. It’s not saying everything’s great. You know, there’s a silver lining and everything.

It’s saying, yes, there are some really bad things, but I also recognize, you know, the positive.

But I think we can do better if we’re really trying to live our most intentional, deliberate,

meaningful, fulfilling, rewarding lives. And that’s recognizing that life happens,

just flat out life happens. And most of it is beyond our control. And that’s okay,

that there’s nothing wrong with that. But that everything has opportunities and constraints.

And rather than looking at a constraint and saying, well, things shouldn’t be that way.

Well, now you’re just fighting with what is, you know, I go to the grocery store and I’m

looking for certain ingredients to cook something that night.

They don’t have them.

If I get stuck with, well, these should be in stock.

This is a regular item.

Okay.

So what?

It doesn’t change anything and now I’m just frustrated.

If to the contrary, I go, okay, well, I can’t cook that because there’s a real constraint.

What do they have?

What are the opportunities?

Okay, it’ll be something different.

But that’s how we sometimes come up with new things.

And I think dance is another great example of this, right?

So again, my background is more in partner dancing, but I think it applies across the

board.

No particular step in and of itself as a mistake.

It may not have been what you intended, but things happen.

Whether it’s your foot slipped a little bit, whether it’s there was a little bit more pressure

from the person you were connected to than you expected.

It’s what happens after it.

And so this also shows up a lot in jazz.

I’m not musically inclined, but I’ve heard it.

It’s not a given note that’s a mistake.

It’s what happens after.

Do you go with it or not?

And the minute I try and control one specific outcome, now I’ve made whatever happened

be a mistake.

Now that shift in weight, that slide of the foot is wrong because I’m trying to force

sit back into what I was intending before that, as opposed to being present with what is,

“Oh, okay, this is where the wait is. Maybe not what I anticipated expected,

but there’s an opportunity what actually could flow from here. What is possible from here?”

JANNINE: That opens a lot of doors in my head because I think a lot of us, when we make a little

mistake, it’s over, right? Like that just throws our whole mind and then we’re like,

forget it, right? Whereas if you can adapt, click on the fly and just make it work.

So much better. So much better.

DR. MARION: And it’s the trap of trying to control outcomes because the minute we try and control things,

anything that deviates at all is now wrong. Whereas it’s, here’s where we’re trying to go,

here’s how we’re trying to do it. And we’re just going to be present. And life happens, detours happen.

You know, and sometimes, you know, I’ve gotten lost after undergrad, I drove cross country with

a buddy of mine. And it was pre, you know, all the GPS stuff. And so we had the old maps and

Thomas guides and you know, sometimes we wouldn’t turn where we anticipated or thought we were going to or planned to.

But it doesn’t mean that there wasn’t something beautiful or stunning as far as the scenery or the locations or the opportunities.

But if we get so stuck in our heads of well, but did I go exactly where I planned.

As opposed to well, no, I left from here. I’m trying to get to the other side of the country. Here’s the general route.

Okay, maybe it’s a little frustrating. I wanted to get to bed an hour earlier, but we got off on some meandering path, but who knows what you’re going to uncover?

And are you open to it or have you shut off all the possibilities?

JANNINE: I like this way of thinking because you could basically take anything that happens in life and not be stressed out about it by thinking this way.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I’m not yet at a place myself where I don’t get stressed out by anything.

Sure. At the same time, I think I pivot much more easily than, and I really had a habit of thinking like this.

JANNINE: Right, right. But I mean, I think you’re right though, like a lot of people, and I mean, I’d be lying if I said that I was completely like not a stress ball about certain things. It’s so such a lie. I mean, it’s true. I get it that way.

But just hearing what you’re saying to me clicks in terms of like, there isn’t any really good or bad.

We just create that idea in our head and following the straight path.

Like for example, from where I was in high school, right, and graduating high school to where I am now,

I didn’t follow the straight path to being a doctor that most folks would think about.

You know, and I didn’t follow the path that I wanted to to become like a professional snowboarder or something.

So, you know, it’s, it is a good or bad.

I don’t give it much meaning either way, but I think like you’re saying, taking the wrong

turn, oh my gosh, that can throw some folks like if they’re trying to get somewhere into

like a complete fight because someone turned left when they’re supposed to turn right.

And what does it really matter?

I think that’s what I’m getting at.

Like, if we could take the approach of maybe it was supposed to be this way, maybe energetically

this was supposed to happen.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so I think we can absolutely do that.

And like, okay, just this is what the universe intended.

Fantastic.

At the same time for people who aren’t there,

I don’t think you even need to go that far to just say, okay,

something happened.

Yes, there were constraints, but there’s also opportunities.

What do I choose to focus on?

JANNINE: Right.

Right.

DR. MARION: And so that’s where I think we have a lot of ownership.

And sure, there are things.

So again, I’d mentioned toxic positivity before.

And so, you know, I do not find it comforting

or I’m gonna be a little judgmental here,

even intelligence when people are like,

everything happens for a reason.

Like if someone you’re close to just passed away,

you don’t wanna hear everything happens for a reason.

which is very different from,

I can choose to take from this experience

what I am willing to choose, right?

So just because it may not happen for a reason

doesn’t mean I can’t take lessons, take wisdom.

And that’s up to me.

And so I think that’s where this comes back in.

And so an example that I think is really interesting

because it ties back to that relationship piece.

And it has to do with, you know,

it’s not one or the other.

It’s that duality, it’s two sides of the coin.

And there is an alloy between them.

They’re not separate.

In relationships, one of the ways this shows up a lot

is as connection versus control.

So, you know, say young couples,

a young couple gets their first new house

and they’re so excited to show it to their parents

and so they invite the parents over

and the parents look around and they go,

well, you know, you need to use toothpaste

to go over the holes in the wall,

so that it’s clean before you paint it.

To the kids that can come across very much as like,

we have this gorgeous new house

and all you can do is criticize.

JANNINE: Right.

DR. MARION: It’s control.

Whereas for the parents, it can very much be, no, we care.

And like you’ve done so amazing.

And like, where can we even contribute?

Like here’s one little detail

where maybe we can make a difference.

In partners, you know, one person, they go out to eat.

And one person like, you know, oh, I think I’ll have the steak.

And the other partner, oh, did you see they have salmon?

Well, one knows that, you know, the first one

is having some cholesterol issues.

They care, they’re trying to take care of them.

But to the other person, you’re controlling what I’m eating.

Yes, I can read.

I saw they had salmon.

I said, I wanted the steak.

JANNINE: Oh, I think I’ve seen this happen in the restaurant

like across the way for me before.

DR. MARION: I’m sure and that’s the point.

It’s not that one is right or wrong.

It’s not that it’s control or connection.

It’s that depending which side of it you’re on,

One person is viewing it as a connection gambit.

The other person’s experiencing it as a control gambit.

JANNINE: Do you think, and I think I’ve asked this kind of before

on a previous podcast, but I’m gonna ask it again

and maybe a different reference frame,

do you think that most conflict within couples

or within a relationship is related to miscommunication?

Like really not understanding the other person’s intentions

of a statement?

DR. MARION: I think it’s a huge factor.

I’m hedging because I don’t know if it’s entirely most.

I think I can certainly see where a lot of situations

where it would be, right?

I don’t think that’s off base at all.

The reason I’m hesitating though,

is I think that so many people

grow up and have experiences where there were underlying insecurities, that

it’s actually there’s some defensiveness, that it’s not even a

miscommunication or a misunderstanding in the actual communication itself, but

it’s this fear of judgment that we don’t even communicate. So it’s not even a

miscommunication, it’s a lack of communication. I could see that. I could

see that. Yeah, judgment back to jealousy. Even you could kind of more of that. I mean,

there’s so many different things. It’s almost like if we had communication school,

I keep saying this over and over again on the podcast, like we need to have this in grade school

or preschool communication school. What would that look like?

DR. MARION: So again, it goes back to what we were talking about before. I’m telling myself a story.

I fully acknowledge this may have no basis in fact, but I’m stressing out about it. So I just want to run it by you. That’s very different from you’re making me feel blank.

JANNINE: Right. Right.

Yeah, that that provokes a little bit of a feeling, but on the other person for sure.

DR. MARION: You are doing something to me. That’s giving the other person too much control.

You are doing something and I’m feeling this way about it, fully legitimate.

I can feel however I want.

There isn’t a right or wrong.

That is how I’m feeling.

That doesn’t mean it’s the other person’s responsibility to change it.

It may or may not be depending on what the relationship is.

Did they realize it was having that impact?

Is it something that’s easy for them to change?

Is it?

I don’t feel that I’m getting your attention right now

and a way that I need, and is that you’re just going out with some friends for a drink,

or is that you have an elderly parent who you really feel you have an obligation to right now?

Those are different conversations.

JANNINE: Yeah. It’s so wild when I think about this, like how much is missed by being

you know, not taking it on yourself to be like,

Hey, I think this is my thoughts.

Maybe I’m wrong, you know, kind of the way you approached it

with the scale.

If we could, you know, take a minute, wait, you know,

and see like, oh, how could I ask this better?

How could I interact better versus just explode,

whatever comes out kind of a situation?

DR. MARION: Yeah, so as you may recall from the first conversation we had, one of the things that I really try and use very tactically for these type of things is focusing on the how, not what.

It’s not what do I want to say to this person.

What’s the outcome I want?

It’s how do I want to show up?

And when the emotions are at their highest or when there’s the most, you know, competing

obligations and pressures, and it is overwhelming because it can be that way for all of us,

right?

At some point.

Then that’s when I use what I had referred to as future casting.

It’s the, what does the five year from now, Jonathan, what are they going to look back

on this and be, that’s how I wanted to handle that. Because we’ve all had that, you know,

two hours later, two months later, crap, I wish I had said this, I wish I had done that.

So when you’re waiting, when you’re exhaling, when you’re taking that deep breath, when you’re

trying to figure out why you’re talking, how do I want to show up? Yes, there were constraints to

this situation, but what are the opportunities? And when I look back on this, how am I going to have

wanted to try and communicate with this other human being.

How am I going to have wanted to show up with them?

And then I’m human.

I may get there.

I may not.

But at least now I have a compass for what

I’m trying to do in the interaction, what

I’m trying to do in the communication.

JANNINE: Think before you speak.

Seems to be still relevant in this case.

in any case, really, what do you want from the outcome?

That’s huge because I think in a lot of cases,

our emotions take over, right?

And we just speak from emotions,

which is huge in terms of like slow down, exhale,

then go, okay, like you said, what do I want this to,

and not the outcome, you said not the outcome,

but what’s my opportunity here?

You know, where am I going with this?

So huge.

DR. MARION: Absolutely, and just as far as that emotion piece,

for people who are used to working in the space,

we sometimes refer to it as self-in-presence,

but I think it’s a really important idea

where rather than getting stuck with,

I am, and then whatever emotion it is,

I am angry, I am happy, I am jealous.

recognizing that’s not all of who you are, right?

Something in me is feeling angry.

Something in me is feeling jealous.

And I’m acknowledging that and that’s real.

And it’s not all of who I am.

It’s not all of what I care about.

It’s not all of how I want to interact

with another human being, but that’s there.

And how can I actually bring that up authentically

in a way where I’m creating an opportunity

understand each other better.

JANNINE: It’s…

I’m looking at this in many different aspects in terms of what I know from my own personal

relationships right in my history of, yeah, letting emotions take over and me, me, me,

right?

All about me.

When in reality, like you said, it’s more about the whole picture.

Both people involved.

What are we going for here?

So important.

And I think we do tend to, I think personally that a lot of our conflict and issues that

we have interpersonally and with communication is that we don’t slow down enough to analyze

where we going with this.

DR. MARION: Yeah.

And one of the things which you’ll know really well is that there’s a difference between

the nerves that take signals from the brain to the body and the ones that go from the

body to the brain and the amount of innervation and for the people who aren’t familiar, you

know, the myelination.

So how much of a sheath is there around the nerve fiber that keeps it insulated.

And so messages from the brain go to the body much faster than messages from the body to

the brain, which is why it can be so easy in the moment to whatever we’re thinking, just

let it run away with us and not actually if we don’t stop, if we don’t pause long enough,

what am I actually feeling? What’s actually going on for me?

JANNINE: It’s an incredible description in terms of the nervous system. And I mean, we’re meant

to react. We’re meant fight or flight. But I don’t know how much of fight or flight.

And maybe you know, I have never seen a study in this department, but fight or flight and speech,

right? And what we say when we’re in fight or flight mode compared to like our actions or

what our guts doing or where the blood’s flowing. Do you know, is there any research on what we

say? Like, are we prone to like snap? Because I’m like, I don’t think of a cave person

as having much verbal, right? Since we say that our fight or flight systems really stuck still in

caveman days or cave person days. 

DR. MARION: Yeah, so what you’re speaking to is what sometimes gets referred

to as a mismatch theory, right? So biological evolution takes place over vast periods of time.

Cultural evolution goes much quicker. And so our biologically evolved nervous system,

There’s some mismatch with the cultural environment of the day. And so fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

Those are all, you know, autonomic nervous system responses, but that are predicated on

real life and death stressors, you know, big bear. Okay. Do I manage to

bunk it in the head with the rock? Do I manage to run away? Do I manage to freeze? Do I manage to

locate it? And sure, huge deluge of stress hormones into the body. But once the situation’s resolved,

those hormones dissipate. We don’t have a different nervous system for stuck-in traffic.

Boss yelled at me, co-worker didn’t get something done when they told me they would.

It isn’t listening, didn’t do their chores. Different family members are inviting us

on the same date, even though we told them that we were already obligated. And so now there’s a

family like Bruha-ha about which side is more important. But we don’t have a different nervous

system. And so we’re getting that same level of life and death stress response from all of these

ongoing little things. And so if you have all of that going on in your system, when you speak to

people, it’s with that level of nervous system activation.

JANNINE: Yeah, I could see that, which makes me think like, yeah, that’s where it’s like, if you slow down,

you’re interrupting the nervous system to be like, all’s good, there’s nothing, you know,

attacking me, I can breathe, I can think a little more clearly than respond versus the quick response.

So it’s just more of a concept of being more self-aware and slowing down, I’m thinking here.

DR. MARION: Yeah, so as you’re well aware, you know, my business steps along the way, you know, yes,

some of that is just because we’re all unique and it’s each of our combination of steps that has

got us to where we are right now. But the reason I also use it as sort of the name and the idea is

you know, it’s not about me. I don’t want to put my name on it. And your best life is being really

deliberate and intentional about the steps you take. Are you making those, you know, as deliberate

intentional choices that go in the direction of how you want to be in the world and how you want

to show up? Or are we just either responding to that stress in and of itself? Are we doing what

we’ve internalized as or feel pressured because we think we should do that? Or are we waiting

long enough, pausing long enough to go,

what’s the version of this that I’m gonna be the happiest with?

I have not heard of a single person who at the end of their life is like,

you know, I really wanna see my garage full of cars one more time.

Yeah, not just gonna say it’s actually one of the things I have a lot of my coaching

clients do is as if it was a screenplay,

right out their funeral scene.

So who’s there, what’s the atmosphere,

what’s the obituary, who is it read by,

and what does it say?

Now you know the type of life you wanna live,

what steps can you take to get closer to that?

JANNINE: Wow, that’s pretty profound.

That’s pretty profound.

Which does kinda tie into the steps along the way

as you move through things.

So let’s tell folks a little bit more

about your coaching practice and how things work

and just give them another little update there

so that we give them the whole scoop.

DR. MARION: Yeah, sure, happy to, thank you so much.

So steps along the way.global is the website

if you just sort of want an overview

of who I am and what I’m about.

And the other thing is that,

we’ve talked about this before,

but I really believe in ROI not as return on investment

but ripples of impact.

And it goes back to that idea of how we show up

in the world is really what makes the biggest difference.

I’ve been affected by not even the lessons

I’ve learned from teachers, but just how they show up.

And I really wanna be the same type of person.

And so everyone’s next steps are their own.

And I welcome anyone to a completely complimentary

no strings attached, not gonna push or sell anything.

What’s your next step chat?

And if you just go to steps2chat.com,

steps2chat1word.com,

and schedule your own 30-minute next step chat.

I’d be happy to discuss with you,

see if you get any ideas,

if you wanna explore working together, great.

And if not, that’s perfectly fine too.

JANNINE: Awesome stuff.

DR. MARION: I certainly hope that that is the experience.

And it’s also where I think some of my cultural anthropology background comes in,

because people who grow up in entirely different settings and have different worldviews,

it’s not about being right or wrong,

it’s how can I understand where someone else is coming from.

And I don’t have to agree with them, but can I understand?

And if we can understand each other, now we’re communicating.

JANNINE: Huge. Huge.

I think that’s a great mic drop right there.

Awesome stuff.

No doubt we’ll chat more.

Dr. Jonathan Marion, thanks for coming

on The Health Fix Podcast again.

DR. MARION: Absolutely my pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me, Jannine.

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