Feeling exhausted from poor sleep?  Tried everything to get a solid night’s sleep but nothing seems to be working? Devin Burke is helping exhausted insomniacs get and stay asleep so they can wake up with more peace, power and presence. Devin was on the podcast back in 2021 – episode 256 where we talked about lifestyle and insomnia.  Today we’re diving into how the mind can interfere with your ability to sleep. Devin is a best selling author, TEDx speaker, renowned sleep coach and founder of Sleep Science Academy. Devin was named “One of the Top 10 Coaches of 2023” by USA Today and also one of the “Top 25 Health Coaches in America.” He’s studied innovative holistic coaching methods from some of the world’s top health and human performance experts for over a decade – and today we’re going to dive into how you think about sleep and it’s connection to insomnia. 

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What You’ll Learn In This Episode:

  • The power of acceptance to finally sleep
  • Why fitting into the 3 P’s of sleep can set you up for insomnia
  • What to do when you’re waking up at 2-4 am
  • The benefits of a sleep coach to interpret your tech sleep data
  • Key factors to support your mind during perimenopause and beyond sleep issues
  • The difference between natural sleep and using a sedative to sleep
  • How your thought process impacts your sleep quality
Restoring your natural ability to sleep.  Using personalized sleep coaching. Technology and online sleep education with sleep specialist and coach Devin Burke.

Resources From The Show:

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Podcast Transcript

TAGS:  Alternative Medicine, Chinese Medicine, Natural Medicine, Holistic Medicine,

2:03 – How focusing on sleep could be the problem

8:24 – How does sleep science teach clients about sleep without focusing on sleep?

13:25 – Understanding the patterns

25:11 – Most people have sleep issues at some point in life

31:04 – Client story

37:11 –  Difference between sedation and sleep

39:40 – Does everyone really need 8 hours of sleep

42:04 – Sleep Science Academy

48:01 – Waking up and eating in the middle of the night

53:08 – Where to find Devin online

[Intro] Welcome to The Health Fix Podcast, where health junkies get their weekly

fix of tips, tools, and techniques to have limitless energy, sharp minds, and fit

physiques for life. On this episode of The Health Fix Podcast, I brought back

Devin Burke. We talked about lifestyle and insomnia a few years back, episode 256, if

you want to check that out. Today, we’re diving into how the mind can interfere

with your ability to sleep.

Devin helps exhausted Insomnia,

get and stay asleep so they can wake up

with more peace, power and presence.

He’s a best-selling author, TEDx,

speaker, renowned sleep coach

and founder of the Sleep Science Academy.

Devin was named one of the top 10 coaches in 2023

by USA Today and also one of the top 25 health coaches

in America.

He studied innovative holistic coaching methods

from some of the world’s top health

and human performance experts for over a decade.

And today, we’re going to dive into

how being overly focused on sleep as a problem

and how you’re thinking about it

can really be what’s keeping you awake

and keeping you from quality sleep.

This one is definitely a twist on what you would think

when it comes to getting quality sleep.

So let’s reintroduce you to Devin Burke.

JANNINE: Devin Burke, welcome back to The Health Fix Podcast.

DEVIN: Oh, thank you for having me back.

It’s been a couple years.

JANNINE: It has been, so many things have changed.

And, you know, one of the things that actually has changed

is I’m getting older, of course.

And I am starting to notice some of the hormonal sleep things

that happen as we get older and so many women my age

and men too, you know, in their mid 40s,

they start to be like, oh my God, it’s nights coming.

Night’s coming.

Am I gonna sleep tonight?

What’s gonna happen?

What do we do?

Well, where do we start in this department?

‘Cause you and I were just chatting about how sleep

is not a problem, it’s a result.

And we really focus on it as being the problem.

So give us —

DEVIN: Yeah, well, let’s start with

why that actually creates a problem,

focusing on sleep like it’s a problem.

One of the things I realized after working

with thousands of individuals is that

when we look at sleep like it’s a problem,

it creates pressure.

pressure to solve it, to figure it out,

to do something about it, to try to control it,

to try to force it, and sleep’s the one thing,

one of the few things in life that the heart,

I find, the heart of you try to control it

or force it or manipulate it or make it happen,

the less it happens.

And it’s so frustrating, it’s so frustrating.

‘Cause people are like, well, I get that.

I’m not sleeping as well.

I wanna do something about it.

And then what I find people do is they try to do

all these things, it creates all this pressure,

all this sort of energy or anxiety or frustration

or fear or all this kind of pressure

and that just pushes sleep further and further away.

And so, you know, right before we started recording,

I was saying, it’s not just what you do.

It’s how you think about what you do

that makes the difference.

and it’s so true when it comes to sleep, so true.

So there’s definitely things you can do to improve your sleep.

And one of those things is seeing sleep as a result

versus a problem.

That’s a subtle mindset shift,

but it makes a huge difference

because it can kind of take the pressure off.

And then you can start to get curious and explore,

well, okay, what is going on

that has my body not doing the most natural thing

in the world, the thing that we were born to do, sleep.

And how can I support my mind, my body, my whole system

to just have sleep happen and happen in a natural way

that doesn’t involve all of these things

and just get that deep refreshing restore to sleep

that we need.

Here’s the thing, going through Metapause is a challenging time for sleep.

That’s just what it is.

And there are things you can do for sure.

Another really challenging time for sleep is people that have young kids.

I get people, you know, if you’re a young mom or dad, like you can expect your sleep

is going to be thrown off.

Like those are like the two times in life that you’re almost guaranteed to have less

sleep and probably less quality sleep. And the good news is they both pass.

JANNINE: Right. Yes, the that is, that is the good news. That is the good news.

Getting you there though, that is, that’s the part that, you know, becomes,

becomes tricky because I know a lot of people, especially in the women’s

house space, we start to see weight going up and, and so many folks have touted

the, well, you’re going to gain weight if you’re not sleeping.

And so now we add another right anxiety level.


Yeah, I’m gonna get Alzheimer’s.

I’m gonna gain weight.

I can actually feel like I’m,

I feel the weight gaining on me

because I’m not sleeping as much or as deep.

And it’s like, oh my God, I need to sleep.

‘Cause I don’t sleep when I continue gain weight.

I’m gonna have higher chance of Alzheimer’s dementia.

I’m gonna have a higher chance of heart attack.

I’m going to, you know, age faster, you know?

So it’s like, what does all that do?

it creates more anxiety, more pressure to figure it out, fix it, solve it, get to sleep.

And that creates less sleep.

JANNINE: I can honestly say you’re on point here because all the times that I’ve worked with patients

intensively on trying to die on the sleep, you know, sometimes it’ll work and it’s all

good. And other times there’s those cases where like nothing works and they have, oh,

Oh, and I’m embarrassed to even say like some folks have like their regimen of like it’s like it’s like playing bingo, right?

You’ve got your little trinkets that are like your good things that you know that gives you the good juju for sleep

And so instead they’ve got this regimen of like eight supplements and they’re like if I don’t take them

I’m not gonna sleep. You know my good luck charms are right here. 

DEVIN: Yes. 

JANNINE: Do you see that often? 

DEVIN: Often.

far too often. It can become like, again, so like not to say that there’s nothing wrong,

there’s nothing wrong with taking supplements. Great. We need magnesium. We need, you know,

it might be great to use Kava or Althonin or some of these things to help our nervous system

rebalance or support our adrenal events. There’s nothing wrong per se with using supplements

to support the body. But again, if we’re thinking about it, like, I need these or I won’t sleep,

That’s a, that’s an issue because number one, it’s not true.

And number two, it creates your, you’re giving your power into a supplement.

And you could, you could take a supplement and say a sleeping medication,

you could take sleeping medication or supplement out and you could say sleep hygiene

routine. Like some people are so hygienic.

They’re overly sleep hygienic where they literally, their bedtime routine starts at eight


And if they don’t get their hot Epsom salt bath by 930,

they know for a fact that they’re not going to sleep, right?

So it becomes this almost like orthorexia

where people just are hyper, hyper obsessed with sleep.

And I get it because, you know,

I know how I feel when I don’t sleep well.

I’m sure you know how you feel when you don’t sleep well.

We know how important sleep is.

So it’s on this pedestal and the challenge,

It deserves to be on a pedestal,

but the issue with that is then again,

that putting on a pedestal creates so much more pressure,

creates so much more focus.

And then I find that that’s the very thing

that gets in the way from sleep happening.

We can’t, it’s crazy.

But once you see it, you’re like,

oh, I get it now, I get it, it makes perfect sense.

JANNINE: So that leads me to the question,

because of course you focus on sleep.

How do you, how do you not focus on it, but focus on it

and make it all come, you know,

how does the Sleep Science Academy work?

You do not focus on it, but focus on it.

What’s the trick here?

DEVIN: Oh my gosh.

– What’s the–

DEVIN: It’s such a good question.

Yeah, so one of the reasons why I’m so passionate

about this work is there’s a lot of mystery

and a lot of paradox.

That’s one of the things.

So like people come to us and they’re like,

okay, I’m in this program because I’ve tried all these things,

These things haven’t worked.

And I see the results are getting,

and it’s about sleep, and we guarantee a result, right?

And you’re learning all these tools

to help get a result sleep.

And so there is a bit of a paradox there

where people are saying, okay, we’re focused on

improving sleep, but we don’t wanna overthink it.

So what we try to do is really help people understand

the underlying patterns that create the loop

in the first place.

And one of the most amazing tools,

something that I had no idea would be so powerful for people

is actually practicing acceptance.

And it sounds so simple.

But when people really get this, when you’re like,

okay, let’s say you wake up in the middle of the night

and you wake up and your mind’s starting to go

and you’re like, oh man, here we go again.

You start thinking about tomorrow,

if I don’t get sleep or the time that you have to get up

and you start to kind of feel a little activation.

So you get yourself out of bed, that’s the first thing.

The next thing that you could do

is actually accept, fully accept,

that you are awake, not making a story about it,

not resisting anything, the pain that comes along with that.

If you could fully get to a place of acceptance,

what happens is there’s an intelligence on our bodies

And the body wants to sleep, it knows how to sleep.

If you, in that place of yes, okay, it is what it is,

there’s nothing I can do really to change this right now.

I’m just gonna be with it.

All of a sudden, the body remembers how to get back to sleep.

And that is a practice.

It’s not a strategy, it’s not a tool, it’s a way of being.

And when you can understand how to be that way,

be in a place of just accepting what is,

I know it kind of sounds overly simplistic.

When people understand this, it’s amazing.

It’s like a miracle.

The body just gets back to sleep.

And so that’s a big part of our focus in our program is helping people give people the

understandings and the practices to get to a place where no matter what is happening,

they’re able to get to a place of acceptance.

And in that place, sleep happens.

There’s also some really important understandings around the psychology around sleep that I

think people miss.

One of them, we call them the three P’s.

Perfectionism, problem solver in the pedestal.

We kind of touched on a couple of them already.

But those three P’s, if you’re looking at sleep, like it’s a problem.

If you’re putting sleep on a pedestal and usually people that have sleep challenges,

they’re kind of perfectionistic.

They’re usually really empathetic, really intelligent people.

They care a lot.

You know, those are the types of people that tend to want to do things right.

Those three P’s usually have people experience challenging sleep.

And so when you can start to see, okay, which PMI or am I on my all three P’s?

I like, I’m hungry.


I mean, yes.

So you probably, I mean, this is the truth.

It’s so funny when people go through that training,

that specific training, and we kind of unpack these patterns

and help them understand them at a deeper level,

all of a sudden they’re like,

oh my gosh, it makes so much sense.

I understand it now.

I get it, I get it.

And so again, we’re changing not necessarily,

we’re changing a little bit about what you’re doing,

but when you change how you think about what you’re doing,

then all of a sudden things change.

And that’s a big part of the work that we do in our programs

is we give people tools, there are guidelines

and certain things, mistakes, big mistakes

that we can talk about here that people make

that seem like they would actually help

but in reality, they hurt.

We’ll talk about what those mistakes are.

You start making those mistakes,

you start to understand the underlying psychology

around what keeps you stuck

and then you start to practice acceptance, sleep happens.

We do that, there’s a lot more to it,

but that takes over eight weeks through that process,

through getting the support,

understanding these tools, techniques,

and ways of being, that results in sleep.

JANNINE: Fascinating, fascinating that it all comes down

the thought process, but I’m super curious,

you hooked me in on mistakes.


JANNINE: What are the mistakes people are making?

‘Cause I’m sure people are like, okay, I’ve identified,

I mean, I identify with all three of the piece,

So I’m like, hmm, what am I doing wrong?

DEVIN: Yeah, so do you wanna unpack the p’s

or do you wanna, ’cause those aren’t the mistakes,

they’re just like some underlying patterns

that then have people try to force or control their sleep,

which is one of the mistakes.

So I guess that kinda leads us into it.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah, let’s unpack them

and then we’ll flow right in.

Yeah, let’s do that.

DEVIN: Yeah, so we’ll do it in an effective, efficient way.

So we already kinda talked about why

looking at sleep like a problem, what that creates.

That creates more pressure, creates more expectation,

that creates less sleep.

So we wanna understand that sleep is a result,

it’s not a problem.

So if there is a problem, what’s the problem?

Well, it’s my relationship to sleep,

it’s what I’m doing and what I’m not doing.

So the second P is let’s look at the perfectionism.

In what ways are you trying to make your sleep perfect

or overly focus on your sleep?

So this could be all the things around,

okay, I feel like I need to take these supplements,

I feel like I need to have a cold dark room,

I feel like I need to XYZ.

Anything you think you need in order to sleep,

we wanna start to identify,

well, is that really true?

Do you really need that?

Yeah, it might help you sleep.

Yeah, it might help you get deeper quality sleep.

Sure, there’s science around that.

But do you really need to do it?

So identifying the ways in which you’re trying

to perfect sleep or control sleep, really important.

And usually they’re pretty similar for most people,

but for some people, those kind of things are unique.

And then the pedestal pattern is,

in a lot of times when people are not getting sleep,

they blame everything on sleep.

And so we try to open it up to, well, is it possible?

Is it possible that it’s not just your sleep

that is creating the fatigue or the exhaustion

or the brain fog?

Yeah, sure, that’s not helping.

I get that.

But is it possible that there’s some other things going on

that maybe you’re not aware of, maybe you are aware of them,

that it’s not sleep is just,

sleep is not the golden standard.

Like if you are sleeping,

all the other things are fixed, maybe, maybe not.

So really starting to unpack, you know,

in what ways do we put it on a pedestal

and what ways is not not helpful

and sort of unwind all that stuff.

So that’s kind of, I mean, that’s a over simplistic,

like short version of unpack in the piece,

which leads us into the mistakes.

The mistakes, biggest mistake people make,

one of the biggest mistakes is they spend too much time

in bed, not asleep.

Which you think, oh my gosh, if I need,

if I’m not getting enough sleep or enough quality sleep,

I need to spend more time in bed.

Makes perfect logical sense.

It’s a complete opposite of what you need to do.

JANNINE: Oh, okay, okay, ’cause yeah,

most people will be thinking and myself too, like, well, if I just lay here,

but then I can see the negative connotation too, where it’s like bed equals sleep,

but I’m not sleeping and I’m in bed.

DEVIN: You’re anchoring a hundred percent.

You’re anchoring wakefulness.

And then I always get the question, well, if I get out of bed,

then there’s no chance that I’m going to get back to sleep or there’s no chance

that I can even sleep because now I’m out of bed and I’m somewhere else.

And I’m doing what you told me, Devin, which is go to a place and have a plan,

Not to get back to sleep just to do it because it feels good.

There’s a really important distinction and what I just said there.

Because if you’re doing something to get back to sleep, you’re trying to

control or manipulate it.

You’re trying to force it.

Do things just to do them because they feel good, not so that you get back to


Very important distinction.

If you’re doing anything to get back to sleep, there’s an expectation,

there’s pressure, even subtly subconsciously, your body’s going to respond to that.

Or dissolved, adrenaline, neuro-journaling.

even in the slightest little bit,

can be enough to keep the body up.


DEVIN: So you wanna get out of bed.

You wanna get out of bed.

And again, this is kind of a guideline.

And mostly for people,

this is when they wake up in the middle of the night,

they’re able to get to sleep,

and then they wake up, maybe it’s two

between two and four o’clock in the morning.

Generally, that’s sort of where people end up waking up.


Wake up.

Okay, you realize you’re up.

You realize your mind’s kind of going.

Kind of feel a little restless, maybe a little uncomfortable.

Maybe you’re your partner snoring.

You started thinking, oh man, I’m not going to get back to, oh, what time do I

have to get up?

How much time do I have?


You started thinking about all the next day is going to be really hard because

if I don’t sleep, I’m going to feel tired.

I’m not going to be able to do X, Y, Z.

It’s going to be painful.

Mine starts to go.


Soon as you realize that that’s going on, if you’re not able to fall back to sleep within about 20 minutes, for some people, maybe 30, for some people, maybe less than 20, you want to remove yourself from the bed and bedroom, go to a low lit place and then have a plan.

And the plan could be reading, stretching, praying, making a cup of tea, knitting, puzzles, listening to music, doing whatever would feel, you know, relaxing, boring would feel good.

Doesn’t matter what it is.

People are always like, well, tell me what to do.

I’m like, well, listen, what do you, what feels appropriate for you?

Because who am I to tell you what to do?

I don’t, I don’t, you know, it’s everyone has their unique thing that they do.

For me, I’ll tell you on the nights where I struggle with sleep, which are rare, but they do happen.

I get a book. I make a cup of tea. I get a book and I just read the book.

And then when I start to feel sleepy, you just go back in bed and let sleep happen.

And that’s it. And it might take you, you might have to get up.

You might get back and you might feel sleepy. You might get back in bed and all of a sudden,

boom, you’re up again.

Your mind’s racing.

And just kind of, you know, at that point, you want to be in bed

for, you know, again, feel into it.

And then if after you’re like really activated, go back to your place.

Begin again.

So that’s a big, you know, people have so much resistance around what I just said,

doing it.

And when you do that, especially if you’re someone that has an issue

with maintenance insomnia or waking up in the middle of having a hard time getting back to sleep.

It works. Now, it doesn’t work. Take some time, but what you do is you’re reconditioning.

Your bed is a place of safety. Your bed is a place of sleep. It’s not a place of frustration.

It’s not a place of worry. It’s not a place of fear. It’s not a place of being up.

JANNINE: That’s huge right there because you’re connecting.

I see this you’re connecting.

It’s almost like a trauma response and better connecting it to all the things that your

brain’s looping on when you can’t sleep.

DEVIN: A hundred percent.

And whether you’re aware that that’s happening or not, it doesn’t make a difference.

It’s happening because if you’re like our body, we love routine and we anchor places with feeling.

Sometimes we’re aware of it.

sometimes we’re not like if you walk into like a cathedral in Europe, there’s a certain feeling you

get just walking into the building because there’s emotion the way that it looks and that happens

with our spaces and our places and especially bed. Bed is like this is you know and so and then

people can develop like sleep envy their partner sleep in and they’re up and they’re like what

What the?

– I know.

– Yeah.

– Hey yo, soft snoring, wake up.

– Right? Like it’s a real thing.

It’s a real thing.

So that is one of the mistakes.

And when people really start to practice that,

it makes a world world of difference.

So the first one, we kind of brushed over a little bit,

but trying to force control it.

We do that through the piece, right?

Suddly, through all those piece.

So it’s just allowing sleep to happen,

not viewing it like it’s a problem,

not trying to overly perfect it,

not putting on a pedestal and thinking that

all your challenges and everything would be resolved

if you were sleeping, dealing with all that stuff.

Getting on a bed, not anchoring the bed

with tossing and turning, frustration,

looking at the clock, it’s another big mistake people make.

So then you start to, okay, I only have three more hours

and then I gotta get up, okay.

Two more hours, okay.

Right, it’s like,

– Yes.

– All right, don’t do that to yourself.

Don’t do it.

Don’t do it.

So, you know, it’s one of those things that

it’s not useful.

So don’t do it.

Don’t do it.

So another mistake that people make is,

and this is a bit of a tricky one too,

so I’m a big believer that you cannot improve

what you don’t measure,

but what people do is they’ll start to measure their sleep

with an oral ring or a whoop strap or whatever.

A lot of devices out there.

And then they’re getting all this feedback, like, okay,

your readiness score is low and your REM sleep

is in the gutter and your deep sleep

and you’re like, oh my God.

And you start to freak out a little bit.

And then what that does is,

well, I gotta do something about this.

I’m gonna get some magazines,

you know, and I’m gonna, you know, do all these things.

And now it puts you right back in that spin

of trying to fix it, trying to solve it,

looking at it like it’s a problem.

It is valuable to measure and track your sleep.

If you have somebody to guide you through that process

that understands it, it’s not valuable

if you’re not sleeping well

and you just keep getting the feedback

that you’re not sleeping well.

And then all the things you try are not quote unquote,

working and it’s reinforcing, oh, I’m broken.

Oh my gosh, I’m not gonna be able to fix this.

I’m trying all these things.

So it reinforces this sort of like I’m a broken,

like something seriously wrong with me,

which then again puts it fear down worry,

which then body response, cortisol adrenaline,

which becomes a pattern.

So don’t measure your sleep.

If you’re not sleeping well,

I would say don’t measure your sleep

unless you’re working with someone.

Just like, you know, it’s like you’re not gonna go

and get blood work if you don’t know how to read it.

JANNINE: It’s, yeah, it’s useless information

that could stress you out if you see,

you know, at least knowing from my patients, you know,

they’ll see it, they don’t know what it means

and there’s highs and lows and they’re like,

“I’m dying.”

DEVIN: Right.

Yeah, and it’s like, “Well, no,

“like here’s some things we can do.”

Like, right?

So it’s the same thing with measuring and tracking sleep.

Definitely useful if you have support.

Definitely not useful if you don’t have support.

So that’s like, that is a mistake is measuring,

measuring your sleep without support.

Like, get support.

If you need, if this is a real issue for you,

If you’re having a hard time,

if it’s affecting your life in a real way,

and get support, get support.

You’re not, there’s other people

that are going through exactly what you’re going through

and there I can promise you,

there is a way out of that.

So many people struggle with their sleep silently,

and then they develop this belief that like,

oh my God, there’s like seriously something wrong with me.

I’m unique, I’m alone, and you’re not.

JANNINE: No, I can also attest to that.

You are definitely not alone.

I mean, I would say probably, I mean,

wouldn’t you say like almost everybody at some point

in their life has a little bit of a period

where there are some sleep issues going on?

DEVIN: 100%.

And it’s like, okay, understanding that

and understanding how to not make that a thing

so it doesn’t become a decade long thing.

‘Cause literally the people that usually we work with,

it’s been going on for years, in some cases, decades.

Like having, and it’s normal to have some sleep issues.

Like when you’re going through this challenging times in life,

whether it be metapause or whether 60% of women

actually might even be higher than that.

Experience insomnia while going through metapause.

So it’s like, okay, well, what can I do

so that as my hormones are finding balance

and as my body’s kind of going through this metamorphosis,

yeah, so what can I do to support my body and mind

to get through this metamorphosis

so that it doesn’t continue on after the metamorphosis?

That’s the question to answer

’cause most likely there’s more than a 50% chance

that you’re gonna experience some challenging sleep,

hot flashes, all the things that come along with the metamorphosis of that change.

Yeah, so it is hopefully that’s helpful. So we’re kind of, you know, this stuff is,

once you see it, the cool thing about this, Dr. Grouse is once you can see it and once you can

help people see it, it just makes sense. And it’s like you have a map. If you don’t have a clear map,

and you’re just like trying to do things and you’re not really sure where you’re going or if what you’re doing is right.

It’s just so you feel stuck and you feel like you know a failure and it’s like

Well, just you know open the map up see the map. Okay. What’s going on here? I?

Can see it that makes sense. Okay, stop doing that. Okay. What’s okay? So it’s like just really having a clear map and

standing to then get back to again, allowing the body to do the most natural thing in the



Yeah, somebody that doesn’t have sleep issues, what they do to sleep.

Nine times out of 10, what do they say?

JANNINE: I don’t know.

DEVIN: Exactly.

I don’t know.

I just go to sleep.

I just, yeah, I feel tired and I get in bed.

Nine times out of 10, those people are actually doing things that would, that are not conducive

to their sleep.

You know, on their devices, there may be having some alcohol, there may be not eating the best

food, and they’re able to sleep.

There’s people that sleep on the side of mountains.

There’s people that sleep in war zones.

There’s people that, you know, fall asleep while they’re driving, right?

So it’s like sleep happens.

It can happen.

It’s just how we relate to it and what we do about it.

JANNINE: Ya know, the relation and thought process thing really, really

strikes me because, you know, like you said, you can sleep on

the side of a mountain. So you’ve seen rock climbers set up

their tents, right? Perched like, you know, and what would

prevent me from sleeping on the side of a mountain? All the

things going wrong with the ropes.

DEVIN: Exactly. 

JANNINE: I’m going to think

DEVIN: exactly.

JANNINE: All the worst case scenario.

DEVIN: Did the where the pittance in that I put I put them in

enough is, you know, is that rope gonna hold, right?

All that stuff.

And those climbers, they’re actually able to sleep

on the side of the mountain because they just trust.

They get to a place of, okay, why trust?

I’ve done this a million times.

And they also accept that, well, if it didn’t, you know,

if I didn’t put it in, then, you know,

this is my choice to be on the side of the mountain.

I’m dying doing something I love in the middle of the night.

You know?

JANNINE: Yeah, true. True story.

DEVIN: It’s like, yeah, so it really are minds,

or it’s like, wow, it’s the placebo effect.

It’s a real thing.

JANNINE: Oh my goodness.

So let’s hammer home for a couple of folks

that might be listening going like,

okay, I’m not gonna sleep on the side of a mountain ever.

So that’s not gonna go through my head.

Let’s share some stories.

Like folks that you’ve been like, holy cow,

they’ve finally clicked for them.

Or just say one story that you’ve gotten

in your bank there of both.

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DEVIN: Wow man, there’s been so, I have so many good ones.

One of my favorite ones though was there was a gentleman,

his name’s John, and I can say it,

I’m not gonna say his last name,

but he left us a testimonial, I love his story.

So he actually, just like most of our clients

tried all the things, they went to the doctors,

they were on all the supplements,

they were doing all the quote unquote right things,

and he wasn’t sleeping,

and he really developed a lot of anxiety around it.

To the point where his wife actually had to drive him

in the car in the middle of the night,

that’s the only place that he was able to fall asleep.

JANNINE: Oh my gosh.

DEVIN: What an amazing woman, right?


DEVIN: What an amazing woman.

So we got him to get out of, you know, we broke that.

We said, okay, let’s, he couldn’t be in,

even in his bedroom.

So we’re like, let’s just move you to a chair

in your living room.

And so we started to develop, okay,

let’s just anchor the chair with sleep,

not the car in the middle of the night, we sleep.

Started to get it, started to reduce the anxiety.

Okay, let’s try going into the bedroom, in the chair,

and then eventually from the chair in the bedroom

to the bed.

So it went from car in the middle of the night,

chair in the bedroom, chair in the bedroom,

from the chair in the bedroom to the bed.

And it literally, the process was the exact process

of understanding, okay, what were all the stories

that were keeping him so activated?

We used the word activated versus anxious.

And understanding, okay, well, how do I deal with all that?

How do I deal with my crazy mind

that’s telling me I’m gonna die if I don’t get sleep?

How do I deal with the thought of tomorrow

is gonna be terrible, I’m gonna be tired,

I’m gonna have to call out a work.

How do I deal with all that

so that it doesn’t have my body be activated

so that I can just allow myself to rest.

And that took several weeks, but now he’s sleeping.

So that’s one of my, I love that story

just because it really does show you the power of

when you really start to change your relationship to sleep,

how it can really, you know, what a difference it can make.

Another lady, she,

She 30 years trying to figure it out.

30 years.

She was on medication for 30 years.

Not the same medication, different medications.

They had every couple of years or months,

they would try a different thing,

whether it’s ambient or colonizopant,

trasino, they’re all the ones.

And she was starting to,

then they thought she had MS

because she started to shake, she was a hairdresser,

And she wasn’t able to work because she wasn’t sleeping.

She was on all these pills.

And so again, same thing, took her through the same process.

Let’s really change your relationship to sleep

and also change some of the behaviors around sleep.

To a couple of weeks, got off all the medication,

stopped shaking, didn’t have MS.

It was either side effect,

either not sleeping or side effect of the medication.

Was able to sleep after 30 years,

trying to figure it out on medication,

cut in hair again, and living on a line.

I mean, and she said she was like,

“This is a miracle.”

I said, “Not a miracle.”

It’s just understanding how to relate to it

in a new way, and then getting the support

that you’ve been missing to then have your body do

what it knows how to do,

which what it doesn’t need drugs to do,

which is sleep.

I can go on, we have like a ton of testimonials

on our website and, but yeah, I mean,

it’s, for me, I mean, this,

I understand when somebody is in sleeping,

how important it is and how detrimental it can be

to somebody’s life.

And for those people that are listening to this,

that are really struggling,

Like go listen to some of those testimonials

because it’s gonna give you hope

and you’re gonna hear yourself in the other person.

You’re gonna be like, oh my God.

Like yeah, I thought that or oh, I think that

or oh, I do that.

And it’ll give you the confidence

and the hope that okay, like you’re not a lost cause

for sure, you’re not.

Everybody can sleep.

Nothing too good to be true about sleeping.

JANNINE: And I think that’s important for folks to hear

because I’ve had people come in and say like,

I’m just the last cause, just give me the trasadone.

You know, I’m just gonna keep taking trasadone.

I’m like, are you sure you wanna keep doing that?

And this is the case in which, you know,

we send them over your way

and have them really start working through things

because it seems like you’ve had folks,

the last gal 30 years, she’s tried different meds.

She’s probably tried all the heavy hitters.

DEVIN: Heavy hitters, Klonopin, Trasadone,

Xanax, Ambien.

Yeah, I mean, I think she said she was,

she over 30 years, she tried like 10 different medications.



And so here’s the truth about medication.

Thank God we have it.

And it’s it can work.

It’s it’s you know, it’s these medications were designed to be used for

temporary for temporary couple of weeks, not for a couple of decades, not for a

couple of years at max, maybe a couple of months, but even then, it’s like really most

of them are supposed to be only prescribed for a couple of weeks.

And it’s like, I feel for the doctors, I get it because people are coming, they’re begging.

Hey, please refill this, please.

And I mean, unfortunately, these are, it’s a band aid.

Most of them are sedatives.

There’s a difference between sedation and sleep.

JANNINE: Hmm. Yeah. Let’s say about that for a second.

Yeah. So the analogy is if somebody knocked you over the head with a baseball bat and you were passed out on the grass, and then somebody else, and you weren’t bleeding, you were just, you know, you were just knocked out.

And somebody walked by and you were kind of in a nice sleeping position. They might think that you were asleep.

And you are not asleep. You are unconscious, knocked out. There’s a difference.

difference. And that’s pretty much what these medications, most of them do, is they knock you

out. But you’re not getting into the deeper stages of REM sleep or Delta sleep for that repair,

that mental emotional repair, the physical repair. And so you will never really wake up

feeling rested. And then what happens is you, again, you’re kind of giving, I use my languages,

is you give your power away to a pill.

And you believe, I need to take this,

or I won’t sleep, which isn’t true,

’cause there’s probably a time in your life

where you’re able to sleep without it.

And so, yeah, sedation and sleep,

two different things, for sure.

And natural sleep, there’s nothing better than natural sleep.

JANNINE: Yeah, no, it’s incredible.

And, you know, unfortunately, yes,

we’ve got all the different war rings and watches

and whoops and things telling us about the HRV

and our sleep scores and our recovery

and we didn’t recover.

And like I’m thinking about it just in my own self

and like you get up and you’ll hopefully

everyone’s not getting up and looking right on their phone.

But when you does come to you,

’cause it alerts you and tells you

your new sleep scores ready.

DEVIN: Right.

You’re like, oh my God, what do I do?

And here’s the truth.

Like the first step too would be,

let’s just focus not on the quality of your sleep.

Let’s just get you sleeping enough.

The quantity of your sleep.

Let’s let’s get you sleeping enough enough for you might be if you’re sleeping

currently three, four hours might be six, six and a half hours.

That might be enough.


And then you focus on, well, how can I make that six and a half hours the

highest quality six and a half hours it can be without over focusing on it?


And then it’s like, okay, well, maybe you’re you’re sleeping five and a half hours

and you’re really like an eight hour person,

well, let’s get you to eight hours.

And then let’s focus on how can we make those eight hours

the best eight hours they can possibly be,

again, without over focusing on it.

JANNINE: Do you think, this is another thing people over focus on

is the timing, right?

Do you think that that eight hour statement

of like everyone should be getting eight hours of sleep,

do you feel like there’s, that’s more individual than really

that everyone should have eight hours?

‘Cause I feel like it is.

DEVIN: It’s total myth.

Eight hours is a myth.

Some people need nine.

Some people need way less.

Some people need, you know, people get away with,

in a healthy way, six and a half.

You know, the National Sleep Foundation says between,

seven, seven and nine hours,

really seven and eight hours.

But some people, depending on their stage of life

and what you’re going on, we got going on.

‘Cause that your sleep architecture changes

with your lifestyle,

If you have more stress, you’re going to need more sleep.

If you’re going through a transition in life,

maybe, you know, menopause or physical transition,

you’re sick, you’re going to need more sleep.

There’s, so that it’s going to change.

Your sleep architecture is going to change as you age,

as you go through life, as things change.

So it’s really important for people to be mindful of that.

Like you might not need eight hours.

you really might not need eight hours.

And thinking that you do,

and if you’re not like an eight hour really sleeper,

is gonna create all this stuff of like,

oh my God, I need eight hours,

I’m only getting seven.

And I heard doctor so-and-so say,

I’m gonna get Alzheimer’s if I don’t get eight hours.

And it’s like whatever it is, right?

It’s like, yeah.

So everyone’s, everyone’s chronotype is also different.

certain people, you know, it really is very helpful to go to bed later.

And it’s not really conducive for our society and our work schedules or our

partner schedules, because you might be married to your partner might be, you

know, like a night owl and you’re like a morning person and you’re going to bed

at like, you know, nine 30 and they’re going to bed at like 11 30.

Maybe that’s not, you know, it’s not really conducive.

Or if you have a nine to five and you have to get up and commute,

and you’re more of a late night person, then you have to get up early.

So it’s there are things you just do the best you can.


DEVIN: You do the best you can.

You try to be as consistent as possible to with with your sleep schedule.

That does help.

JANNINE: I think consistency is important.

And then going back to kind of all the different things you’re teaching.

Now you’ve alluded to a lot of things about the sleep science academy,

which you guys have got going on in there.

I would love for you to talk a little bit more about it so folks can kind of get a full

picture sense because it sounds very different than other sleep programs that I have talked

about with other folks.

Not on the podcast, but just in general in terms of what someone else is up to in their stuff.

DEVIN: Yeah.

So a lot of people focus on like sleep hygiene and maybe they do more of like CBTI type

of we do incorporate some of that.

I think there’s a time and a place for it.

But what I found is really,

there’s a couple of missing pieces.

It’s timing matters, like order matters.

And if you get the order wrong,

it can actually do the complete opposite

of what you’re trying to achieve.

So yeah, so Sleep Science Academy,

it’s an eight week online sleep coaching program.

And we really focus on helping people

change the relationship to sleep

and stop the behaviors

that keeps sleep from happening.

And a couple, we do that in a unique way.

It’s one, it’s through education.

So there’s training modules, takes about an hour to,

sometimes three hours a week to go through the modules

to actually learn, educate yourself

on some of the tools, the techniques, the mindsets.

So that’s a big piece of it.

It’s like understanding what’s actually going on.

Then it’s getting the support.

And support is so important.

So we have coaches once a week that jump on calls,

coaching calls with our clients, check in with them,

personalized their program to really understand

what’s going on for them personally.

And then once a week we have a group call.

And this is great because people really get to hear

themselves and other people get to really experience

that they’re not alone, get to really understand that,

you know, they’re not unique.

They’re unique, but what they’re experiencing is not unique.

And all of that is really important.

And that also is a really big component to what it is we do.

It’s helping people not feel alone and helping them understand that they’re not broken through

the power community.

So that’s a core element.

And then we do measure and track our clients sleep.

And for some people, there’s a lot of coaching around, hey, don’t even check it.

Like we’re just going to let us do our job.

Don’t check it.

If it’s useful to check it, great.

If it’s not, then you’re not, but let us see that information so that we can, as a team,

work together to continue to help you make progress.

And so that’s what we do at Sleep Science Academy.

JANNINE: That’s cool.

So what’s the, what’s the, what are you using to track?

What’s your device that you guys have?

DEVIN: So we, in the past, we were using Aura Ring.

We’re actually in the process now of beta testing a new device called Ultrahuman.


DEVIN: Yeah.

So they’re kind of like the ORA ring in Europe.

They’re kind of making their debut here in the US.

What I really like about that specific device

is they also have a CGM,

continuous bug glucose monitor, which is really cool.

Not necessary, but it’s interesting.

And you can kind of start to see how other

asp physical food, stress, how that affects insulin

and how that can affect sleep.

But yeah, so that’s what we use.

The ORA Ring’s great.

It’s great because it’s non-invasive, small,

and it puts, here’s the thing with devices.

They’re not, no device is really 100% accurate,

but we’re looking for precision,

which is consistency in the data.

And if it’s consistently off by whatever it is,

then at least we can see the improvement.

But I always tell people, don’t hyper-focus

on the actual data and the numbers

because it’s not 100% accurate.

What you’re looking for is improvement over time

with consistency.

JANNINE: That makes sense.

And yeah, I would agree, like whether it’s H.R.V,

whether it’s, you know, anything you’re looking at.

DEVIN: Yeah.

JANNINE: Good to have someone have an eyeball on it.

Like you said a couple of times in the podcast

is having someone with the eyeball that knows what,

what to do with the information.

So when someone comes into the sleep science academy,

so they are getting linked in with the coach

somebody that’s going to monitor them and then work with them there.

So they’ve got one on one contact with this individual throughout the course of eight


DEVIN: Yeah.

And that’s really important.

I mean, it’s, you know, it’s, I feel like the group support and the one on one support

over the years, we’ve actually tested just having one on one support, just having group


And we just found the combination of both is just so helpful.

Because you know, some people don’t want to bring certain things up in a conversation

in a group and then some people, it’s really powerful and important for people to feel like

they’re a part of a group and understand that they’re not alone and there is other people in the

world that are going through exactly what you’re going through and kind of hear yourself and other

people. So right now, the way that our program is set up is the focus is on both.

JANNINE: Gotcha. Gotcha. I think that’s good. And one of the things that a lot of people don’t want

to talk about in terms of sleep stuff is the waking up to eat at night.


JANNINE: You know, the blood sugar stuff connected.

So that’s cool that you’ve got the CGM there.

DEVIN: Yeah, and we don’t do that.

So we’re just just to be totally transparent.

Yeah, yeah.

We’re kind of just in the beta testing.

Hey, like what is that going to look like?

But right now, yeah, that’s not part of what we’re doing.

It’s maybe a future thing that might be an option if people are interested in it.

Because the thing is not everybody wants to measure their, you know, stick themselves

with a CGM and some people would be happy to do it. But so we’re kind of exploring,

hey, how are we going to incorporate that? Or are we going to incorporate that in what we do as an


JANNINE: Gotcha. Gotcha. But it is, you know, you’re seeing and because of kind of thinking about,

I’m seeing, I’m getting at the idea that you’re seeing folks are waking up in the middle of the

night quite a bit and having like interesting things of that nature. Because that’s really

where a lot of people in my practice will be like scared to tell me like, yeah, I wake up and have

have to eat every night.

You know, and then they’re like–

DEVIN: Yeah, yeah, or people that we hear,

like people say, I have to eat right before bed.”

Which is an ideal because you’re not,

you know, that’s definitely getting in the way of sleep quality.

Some people eat in the middle of the night

because it’s comforting.


DEVIN: Right? It’s like, oh, it feels good to eat something.

It kind of like takes the edge off

or some people actually need to eat something

because their blood sugar’s all over the place.

And that’s why they’re waking up.

And then their mind starts going and it’s like,

Okay, well, let’s deal with the blood sugar and the mind.

Let’s get you stable, get your body in homeostasis

and your mind in homeostasis, both.

JANNINE:That’s perfectly said, the mind in homeostasis.

I’m kind of hunching that that for most people

in the case of sleep, it’s not a deficiency per se.

You might have magnesium deficiency,

you might need a little melatonin,

but it’s more homeostasis of the mind.

DEVIN: I would say, I mean, here’s the thing,

like I might be a little bit skewed

because I’m getting the people that we get

are kind of the ones that sort of have been

through all the things and now they’re getting referred

to us or they’re continuing to search and then they find us.

So it might be a little bit of a skewed perception

from that point of view.

And almost everyone I’ve talked to and at this point,

literally I’ve talked to thousands of people,

coach thousands of people, there’s always a mental component.

Whether you’re aware of it or not, there always is.

I mean, it’s both.

It’s physical and it’s mental.

It’s where we can’t take our head off our bodies.

Um, and so I think as a society, it’s a lot easier to us for us to focus on the

physical because we can feel it, we can touch it.

When we’re working with the mind, it’s not really tangible.

So it’s, it becomes this thing that’s like sort of mysterious or not understood.

It’s much easier to kind of, you know, work with things that we can touch and we can feel

and we can see versus, you know, thoughts.

You can’t really see thoughts.

At least I can’t.

So, you know, it’s a little bit of a, yeah.

JANNINE: I haven’t developed that skill yet.

Maybe someday.

DEVIN: I mean, I’m working on it.

Sometimes I feel like I can, but most of the time now.


JANNINE: So, so I got to ask those of you who are listening to the audio version of this, Devin

and has these really cool blue light blocking glasses on.

And I got to ask,

where did you get those?

Those are pretty schnazzy.

And do you recommend them with folks?

DEVIN: Okay, so I’m gonna give you the full shot.

So I do.

So actually, so I am now a good friends

with the owner of this company.

But before I became friends with them,

one of someone on my team told me,

hey, like she had really bad migraines

and she bought a pair of these and she really helped.

And, you know, companies send me all kinds of stuff,

test this or promote that or whatever.

And I’m like, all right.

And so this company actually reached out to me.

They sent me a pair of these.

I put them on.

I’m like, wow, I’m behind lights all day long,

computer all day long.

And I really did notice a difference in the,

just the quality of like how my eyes fell.

And so they have, it’s, they’re called Viva Rays.

And this is what’s really cool about the technology.

So they have these three lenses

where you can magnetically put,

and this is again, so this is like,

so these would be right before bed, like completely red.

– Yeah.

– And then these are supposed to be like

when the sun starts to set,

if you’re still behind a computer or whatever.

And then these, the ones that I’m kind of wearing

are the just like the daytime computer glasses

if you’re in front of like lights.

And here’s the thing, like again,

you can over focus and over be hygienic

and over all that stuff,

But support yourself.

Like it’s not normal to be behind lights

and a computer for eight, nine hours a day.

It’s not, it’s just not.

So if you choose to do that

and you’re not taking breaks and looking at the sunset

or waking up with the sun,

then getting some really high quality

blue blocking lenses, it’s supportive for sure.

JANNINE: Nice, nice.

I’m always curious.

And yes, you know, like we said before,

we could get super granular on this and get obsessed,

but we can also find things that do help us

and kind of get the holistic approach,

which is definitely how the homeostasis in the mind,

I love that, I’m gonna quote that.

That comes into the whole picture.

So I love how you’re taking everything

into account here, Devin.

So tell everybody where they can find you,

how they can get in touch with you guys

to jump into the Sleep Science Academy

and all of those good things.

DEVIN: Yeah, so we can put links below this recording

for anyone that’s interested for our website,


And yeah, we do a consultation with people,

but honestly, we created after so many years,

we just said, we put together a four minute video

that pretty much explains all the things that we do,

why it’s unique, why it’s different, why it works in four minutes.

And that’s on our website and on our landing pages and just watching that

video, you’ll kind of understand, okay, this is what it is.

I get it.

Um, and then you can make a decision of whether or not it’s for you or, or you,

you want the support.

JANNINE: Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Oh, that’s cool.

I liked that you got the video to kind of condense it for folks too.

And of course guys, hopefully you’ve got a pretty good idea of what Devin is

up to in the sleep science academy here on the podcast as well.

Devin, thank you for coming on and sharing all about the sleep signs Academy and the

Viva rays.

These are fun.

These are fun guys.

I’m going to get a little link to that so that you can see what those look like too.


Thanks Devin.

Thanks for coming on again.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

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Ep 473: Your Home’s Air Quality Could Be Toxic! With David Milburn

Ep 472: Fascia – The Overlooked Link in Autoimmune Conditions, Chronic Pain and Illness With Anna Rahe

Ep 471: Chinese Medicine Dietary Secrets for Coughs, Cholesterol, Hormones and Longevity With Dr. Angela Zeng

Ep 470: East Asian Herbal Medicine for the Modern World – With Dr. Angela Zeng