Ep 516: Rethinking Endurance: Fitness Myths & Life Long Health with Brad Kearns

In this episode, Dr. Jannine Krause is joined by Brad Kearns—New York Times bestselling author, Guinness World Record-setting speed golfer, former national champion, and #3 world-ranked professional athlete. As the host of the B. Rad podcast and a top-ranked high jumper, Brad is passionate about promoting lifelong peak performance through fitness and mindset. Today’s podcast dives into his new book with Mark Sisson, Born to Walk, which questions conventional fitness wisdom around endurance running and asks whether the idea of “more suffering equals better results” might be misleading. Tune in for a fresh take on fitness where health and sustainability are the main focus. 

Resources From The Show: 

• Brad’s Website
• Peluva Shoes – Use code HEALTHFIX at peluva.com for a discount on your purchase.
• Born to Walk – Brad Kearns & Mark Sisson’s book

Our Partners

Podcast Transcript

3:58 – Brad’s new book “Born To Walk”

5:22 – Ancient inspiration behind the modern day marathon

8:36 – How triathlon’s came to be

13:58 – Excess endurance exercise hypothesis

18:23 – Running and losing weight

21:01 – How intense should your workouts be?

22:44 – Importance of base miles

29:44 – Ramping up to sprinting workouts

31:09 – Zone 2 cardio

38:11 – 80/20 principle and the black hole zone

39:32 – Transitioning from running to walking

47:59 – The obligate runner

49:46 – Addictions and fitness addiction

54:22 – Using elevated cushioned shoes

100:03 – Where to find Brad online

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[Preview] But they’re tired all the time and their digestion doesn’t work.

And oh, lo and behold, some of these extreme endurance athletes have been going for years and decades

are now developing at an alarming rate, heart problems,

because the heart is overworked and scarred and inflamed over and over

from these overly stressful workout patterns,

and it turns out to be a risk in a similar realm

as to someone who doesn’t use the heart enough.

You’re 150, 160 pounds.

You go for a five-mile run.

You’re generating 2.3 million pounds of impact trauma.

And most people, due to living a comfortable, convenient, and sedentary-driven modern life,

don’t have the overall fitness adaptability, musculoskeletal resiliency, mobility, flexibility,

all those things to absorb that impact trauma appropriate.

JANNINE: Hey, health junkies.

On this episode of The Health Fix Podcast, I’m interviewing Brad Kearns.

He’s a New York Times best-selling author.

He’s a Guinness World Record-setting professional speed golfer.

He was the #1 USA ranked Masters-level track and field high jumper in 2020.

And he’s a former national champion and #3 World-ranked professional athlete.

He hosts the B Rad Podcast.

I’ve been on that one a couple times and promotes the idea of pursuing peak performance with

passion throughout life.

Brad’s an awesome dude.

I’ve gotten to know him over the last few years.

And he really is all in on helping folks

live their best life,

but also really understanding what moves the needle

and fitness and what is gonna keep you injury free,

not hurting yourself and just keeping you healthy

so you can do the things you love for longer in life.

Today, we’re going to be kind of talking

about something super controversial.

The idea that maybe running all the time

isn’t the best way to look at fitness in the long run.

We’re gonna talk about walking.

And we’re gonna talk about his new book

with Mark Sisson that’s coming out in the new year

called Born To Walk,

which is kind of a play on the old run to walk concept

that we’ve all probably heard of.

So I’d be thinking about something during this podcast,

that the concept of the suffering

to really get results and fitness,

do we need to really suffer?

Or can we work hard, get things done,

keep ourselves free from injury

and have a healthier, more mobile life as we get older?

All right.

(upbeat music)

[Intro] Welcome to the HealthFix podcast

where health junkies get their weekly fix of tips, tools

and techniques to have limitless energy, sharp minds

and fit, physiques or life.

JANNINE: Brad Kearns, welcome back to The Health Fix Podcast.

BRAD: Dr. Jannine, I am so happy to connect with you.

And we stay in touch.

You’re doing some great work.

You’ve helped me personally with my health concerns.

And now we’re going to help everyone in the fitness world

recalibrate some of these flawed notions that

have been hanging around for a long time,

thanks to marketing hype.

And we’ve got a bright new future ahead.

JANNINE: I’m looking forward to it.

Because as I mentioned before, I feel like everything I’ve

ever known has been a lie.

and really boils down to this marketing stuff

and selling things.

And I’m like, oh, fallen victim to many things.

And definitely I think it’s a point to just really

for folks who are listening to be thinking about like,

okay, we’ve been brainwashed about running

and we’re gonna talk about it a little bit today

becoming me being a recovering marathon addict

and seeing the changes in my body

and seeing the changes in my patients’ bodies.

This is relevant information to talk about.

So, nevertheless,

First thing we got to go towards is what you told me in blue my mind about marathon distance stop this 26.2 was actually a lie.

BRAD: Right. So, uh, we, Mark Sisson and I have a new book coming out and it’s called born to walk.

And of course that’s a play on this widely glorified notion that humans are born to run.

And the evolutionary biology of course is highly valid and we have these amazing endurance

attributes that make us one of the most impressive endurance creatures on earth.

We can actually carry on for long distances and we can sweat and we’re bipedal and so

all that stuff’s fine and dandy.

But somehow, thanks to the running boom over the last 50 years, we have been socialized

to think that becoming competent at steady state long distance running is something that

will bring you health and fat reduction and all these promises.

And it hasn’t really turned out that way.

The reason is because humans are not really genetically adapted to put on cushy running

shoes and run down the road every day or day after day for a certain number of weekly mileage,

which is kind of the cultural programming in the endurance scene.

But you jumped in with a fun way to enter into this story.

And most endurance minded listeners know that the modern day marathon of 26.2 miles was

inspired by this amazing Greek running soldier named Fidipides.

And there’s a chain of running stores called Fidipides.

And he’s come to prominence these days as the inspiration for the modern marathon.

And as the story goes, Fidipides ran 26 miles from the city of Marathon to the city of Athens

to announce victory in battle.

He said, “Nike, Nike, Nenikai Am,” which in Greek means we won, rejoice, we conquer.

And then as the story goes, he dropped dead.

And this amazing legend has now imprinted on people’s skin when they get their tattoo,

when they finish the marathon and on bumper stickers.

And that was the foundation.

And it’s a complete fabrication.

So it never happened.

There was an amazing Greek running soldier.

They’re called Hemero Dromi.

That’s their job in the military is to run and send messages.

So they’re foot messengers.

That’s the translation.

And so this guy, Fidipides, was an amazing legend of Greek history.

But his story got twisted and turned into this modern day fabrication in a late 19th century

poem.

So this guy made up a poem about Fidipides.

He made up the idea that he ran from Marathon to Athens to announce a victory.

That’s what inspired the modern Olympic Games in 1896.

They said, “Hey, let’s also put in a long distance event inspired by Fidipides,” which

was the fake poem that was written soon before that.

What Fidipides really did was an amazing element of Greek history and actually world history

because he was a major force as a messenger.

And so he actually ran from Athens to Sparta,

which is 153 miles,

and he did it in 36 hours

because he urgently needed the Sparta’s help in battle.

And he got to Sparta and he found out

that they were on vacation.

And so he had to run back to Athens

in double time to tell them,

“Hey, we’re not getting their help till later,”

because the Spartas were on vacation.

So he ran 306 miles in 72 hours, four days.

And it was one of the great modern feats of endurance

in recorded history.

But the marathon, if we want to honor Fidipides–

and he did not die at the end– he came back to Athens

and said, hey, we don’t have the Spartans’ help for a while.

So if we want to honor Fidipides, the marathon

should be 306 miles.

not 26.2. So I think the reason that we emphasize this at the start of the book,

Born to Walk, is because we want to convince you that these modern distances are not like the

ultimate human athletic achievement, but rather just an arbitrary distance driven by a ton of

marketing hype, because now endurance sports are big business. And I’m putting triathlon in there

too, which was my background, as you know, the Iron Man triathlon, the greatest achievement

of the triathlon scene, was also kind of a whimsical, as the story goes, and this is a true story,

a bunch of drunk Navy men were sitting around at an awards banquet after doing the Waikiki

Roughwater Swim, and they were arguing which was the toughest event in the Hawaiian Islands,

the 2.4 mile Waikiki rough water swim, the 112 mile bicycle ride around Oahu, that’s the

distance around the island, or the 26.2 Honolulu Marathon. And someone said, “Well, if someone

could do all three of those in one day, they would be a real Ironman.” And in 1978, I believe it was

13 people decided to do it, and that was the first Ironman. And now it’s this huge global

multi-million dollar brand where every day normal people, not super buffed Navy men that had free

time and were, you know, at elite athleticism. Now we’re telling everyone to go out there

and train for this crazy 140.6 mile total event. And so my contention here, and I want everyone

to absorb this for a moment, I think the world would be way better off if the marathon were

13.1 miles instead of a half marathon, make the marathon 13 miles. It’s still an extremely

long way to run and if the Iron Man were a half Iron Man, we definitely be better off

because most people when they finish an Iron Man are shuffling along in some sort of a

fast walk or a very slow jog and they’re just barely hanging on to the finish line rather

than making it somewhat of an athletic event where they’re actually moving at a good pace

and checking their splits and trying to be an actual racer, which is possible for many

more people if the Iron Man were actually a half Iron Man.

JANNINE: I mean, it makes sense.

Having done these things, not Iron Man,

but Marathons and Half-Marathons myself.

Yeah, when you sit at the end,

watch people come across.

It’s a half marathon looks a lot prettier

than the full marathon.

BRAD: Plus all the spectators don’t have to wait so long.

And I used to announce,

I mean, I raced a lot of hard races in my triathlon career

and I was on the pro circuit for nine years

and it was really tough,

but the toughest race I ever did was announcing

an Ironman triathlon with no backup announcer.

So I announced for 17 hours straight because that’s the race is a 16 hour cut off.

You have to finish by midnight and you start at 7 a.m. or whatever.

And so I get on the mic an hour before the swim to get everybody warmed up in the morning

and then carry on the entire day.

And it’s a big ordeal to train for.

It’s a big ordeal on the competition day.

And all this is in the name of health and that great human spirit of conquering challenges.

And all that’s fantastic. And I know there are some listeners right now that are maybe even

put off a little bit because endurance is a major positive element of their life. It’s the centerpiece

of their social gathering and their social community. And there’s so many wonderful things that people

have turned their lives around from sitting around and not exercising or being addicted to,

harmful substances and now they’re “addicted to running or to triathlon” and of course that’s a

much better addiction than addicted to bad stuff. However, it’s still an addiction and these are

some of the things that we sweep under the rug as we glorify these extreme events. So the argument

and the thing we’re trying to do with the book born to walk is to strongly urge you to approach

your endurance goals in a healthy manner rather than a destructive overly stressful manner where

they end up on your table and you’re trying to figure out what’s wrong with them because it’s

sub-clinical. There seem to be a healthy person but they’re tired all the time and their digestion

doesn’t work and oh lo and behold some of these extreme endurance athletes have been going for

years and decades are now developing at an alarming rate heart problems because the heart is overworked

and scarred and inflamed over and over from these overly stressful workout patterns.

And it turns out to be a risk in a similar realm as to someone who doesn’t use the hard enough.

JANNINE: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point to heart. I want to talk about that. First,

I have to say one thing. Did you know that there is a marathon Wisconsin and an Athens,

Wisconsin and there are 13.44 miles separated between those two cities? I would run that. I just

I just want to put that in there for fun.

Fun.

BRAD: I wonder if they named it accordingly, you know, just for the heck of it.

JANNINE: I’m going to have to dive into it because my best friend lives in Athens.

So we’re going to we’re going to have to figure it out because we’re talking

too small, small farm town.

BRAD: They have a sense of humor.

They said, Hey, let’s do it.

Let’s do Athens and marathon.

And then if we go there and back, it’ll be 26 miles.

JANNINE: There we go.

There we go.

I don’t know.

Had to throw that in there, but, but the heart, heart is a big thing.

Right.

I’ve been seeing a lot more athletes with higher calcium scores.

So they’re getting the calcium scoring done.

They’re higher scores.

They’re thinking what in the world’s going on,

their cholesterol’s up.

They can’t seem to get it down.

They run more.

It doesn’t change.

And then we do tests like the metabolic mics

or different types of tests for oxidative stress

and the oxidative stress is off the charts.

I’m guessing you’re probably seeing that

in some of the endurance athletes

that you guys are working with too.

BRAD: Sure, and it’s not in dispute or some crazy theory by Dr. Jannine.

And this is known science.

There’s an arm of exercise physiology called the excess endurance exercise hypothesis.

And it’s showing the data that if you exceed a certain amount of training volume, your

graph, if you envision a horseshoe-shaped graph, it starts to decline down to where your health

benefits become less and your disease risk increases.

And that’s just due to the chronic overproduction of stress hormones and chronically over stressing

and inflaming your body with these difficult workouts.

So everyone knows that the right dose of anything is the thing that’s going to give you the

best health outcomes.

If you overdo it, you can get yourself into real trouble.

And I think the most glaring and obvious example in the running scene is the rate of overuse

injuries.

And there’s a variety of resources, quoting numbers.

We’re spouting the consensus of about 50% of regular runners are injured every year, and

25% of regular runners are injured at any given time.

These numbers are absolutely astonishing and embarrassing

because they’re bigger than the NFL, Jannine.

The NFL annual injury rate is 31% at any given time.

So if no one’s tackling you on the roads and trails

of America and the world, there’s a big problem here.

And the overuse injuries occur because running is quite a,

it’s a high impact traumatic event,

especially when you’re going for miles and miles.

And unlike walking, where there’s no impact load

beyond one time’s body weight,

’cause there’s one foot on the ground at all times

during the walking stride,

that’s the definition of the difference

between walking and running,

is that running has what’s called a flight phase.

So both legs are in the air.

And then when you land, you are generating,

typically with a slow paced or medium paced joggers

around two to three times body weight

on every single stride.

So if you go for a five mile run, there’s a calculation in the book, you’re 150, 160

pounds, you go for a five mile run, you’re generating 2.3 million pounds of impact trauma.

And most people, due to living a comfortable, convenient and sedentary driven modern life,

don’t have the overall fitness adaptability, musculoskeletal resiliency, mobility, flexibility,

all those things to absorb that impact trauma appropriately.

therefore they will run their way into injury routinely.

So the problem is that the sport itself

is overly stressful for most people.

So most people with an ambition to become a runner

and sign up for the half marathon or the marathon

or whatever the goals are and the programming

and the group and the community they join,

they are running their way to injury

and to accelerated aging in a variety of ways.

one of them we touched on a bit was the potential for over stressing the cardiovascular system.

JANNINE: Okay. Okay. So of course, I got to bring up the big topic that I hear and I mentioned

earlier to you before we hit record. One of the first things women will say when they’re like,

I’m gaining weight. I need to run again or I need to start running, right? There is that

mindset of like, I can lose weight because all what we see is the runners who are thin

who are winning these races. And of course, we’ll get into skinny fat, I’m sure, here

soon. But everyone thinks about that, right? Because one, I think we’ve been brainwashed

to think like if we start running, I mean, I’d be lying if I didn’t think the same thing

in my twenties, started doing the whole marathon stuff. So, you know, we’ve got the frequent

injuries, we got women who are starting to gain weight, you know, estrogen issues, dropping

off. So that’s more prone to injury. And now we’ve got this myth about you’re not really

going to lose weight while running. And so I would love for you to talk about that a

little bit because I do think that a lot of women, when they get on the health kick, they

do think running is going to be the answer as the magical exercise. So let’s talk about

this not? 

BRAD: I mean, we’ve been programmed very successfully on both sides, the diet side and

the exercise side to envision this calories in calories out model. And it’s not so simple.

And there are so many variables that we need to look at this with a little more big picture

perspective. So true, the number of calories burned versus the number of calories stored

So not eating, it’s not calories eating and calories burned during exercise, but it’s

what you do with the calories and then the different types of food act different ways

in the body and all those things that you’ve covered a lot on your show.

So I think most of your sophisticated listeners, most people understand that it’s not as simple

as just reducing the number of calories you consume every day as reported in your food

app and then going out and burning more as you look at the screen on the machine.

But if we need a little more reminder here, what happens is the body engages in an assortment

of compensatory mechanisms when the workout exercise expenditure is too strenuous.

And so if you get up at 6 a.m. and get on that bike seat and crank out that spinning

class or you’re in the running scene and you want to hit your 30 miles a week or your

40 miles a week or whatever it is and you go in huff and puff and get that done week

in week out, you’re going to be a more lazy person throughout the day and you’re going

to eat more food, particularly quick energy food that will give you that boost because

you’re an a state of chronic exhaustion from overly stressful exercise program.

Burning more calories is a way to tank your hormones, slow down your metabolism, and kick

up your appetite when you’re sitting on the couch that night after your 6 a.m. spin class

because you didn’t get enough sleep and you have a variety of other stress factors that are

overloading the stress side of the balance scale and you’re not getting enough restoration and

recovery. 

JANNINE: I mean, I’ve seen this to be true in my practice. I’ve seen it be true in myself when I

would run more or do different cardio types of exercise. Now, of course, what I do want to get

across and I want to get your opinion on this because there’s a lot of noise out there about

too much intensity, not enough intensity. How much do we actually do? What do you advise for folks?

Because I do feel like if there’s two days a week where I do a little bit of a sprint workout

or something that I speed up, I do better. That’s just me. But what have you kind of been advising

folks on? Because there is that noise about intensity, not too much do this, do that. And

and it’s kind of got people spinning a little.

BRAD: Yeah, well, I mean, high intensity interval training

protocols are so popular, that’s kind of the biggest

type of protocol in the fitness scene.

So the branded workouts, the things you do at home

or the things you do in the gym are mostly

of the hit variety.

So you go to boot camp, you go to spin class,

you go to bar, you do the home-based workout

that takes you through a somewhat stressful

and very challenging workout where you’re asked to perform over and over at medium to

high intensity, and then you recover and you go through these interval sequences.

And in research, you can see that these deliver really quick fitness benefits and comparison

to just trudging on the stair climber or walking around the park every day because you need

to get your muscles working and you need to get your heart rate up and that will stimulate

these fitness benefits. The problem is the amount of intensity that you can handle, let’s

say the number of intervals or the amount of hard work that you can handle in a week

and absorb and benefit from without breaking down is predicated on the size of your aerobic

base or your overall aerobic capacity. So if you look at the Olympic runners that we enjoyed

watching in Paris in the summer of 2024. The guys who are racing in the mile, the 1500s,

short of a mile, the race lasts for three and a half minutes.

Routinely, they are running over 100 miles a week overall in their training to get really good at

racing for less than one mile. And the long distance guys, the marathoners are running massive amounts

of volume at a comfortable pace. So they’re building up their aerobic capacity so that when they do

you throw down those very impressive interval workouts that you can watch them do on YouTube.

Yaka Binga-Britson, the greatest middle distance runner in the world, does a go-to workout

of 25 quarters.

So, that’s a one lap around the track at a very fast pace.

I think somewhere around a minute with some, you know, a break in between them, but it’s

like the most awesome, amazing interval workout that you can’t even imagine how difficult.

But in order to actually perform a workout like that, that is coming off of or launching

off of a base of 100 plus miles per week of running day in, day out, year in, year out.

So the average person at home that wants to go do a very stressful spin class where they’re

pushing you and you’re doing 30 second sprint, 30 second rest, 30 second sprint, 30 second

or whatever it is.

Ideally, you’d want to have a massive amount

of easy pedaling and easy movement

to build the aerobic system so that workout

is not overly stressful.

There’s another thing that we seem to overlook

in the fitness scene, and that is a true sprint workout

delivers a tremendous amount of fitness benefits

with minimal risk if you do it correctly.

And when we say sprint, the true definition of sprint

in the human is we can only maintain maximum effort for around seven seconds.

That’s the ATP creatine phosphate system in the cell.

So a sprint is anything seven seconds or below.

And if you continue to go hard for beyond that, it’s not a true sprint.

It’s sort of into a hybrid where you’re recruiting other energy systems.

And it’s still a valuable training protocol.

And there’s all kinds of different interval workouts and sprint types of sessions.

But what I recommend for the average fitness enthusiast that wants

to step things up and make some really great breakthroughs

without burning out from doing too many exhaustive

interval workouts is to sprint for around 10 to 20 seconds.

10 seconds would be something high impact

like running on the ground or running up a hill.

Or 20 seconds would be something like on a bike

or a rowing machine where there’s little to no impact.

So the appropriate time to sprint is between 10 and 20 seconds,

no longer than 20 seconds because then you start

get into the realm of high intensity interval training and it can be too difficult for most

people. But if you can work that top end once in a while, once a week is fine, to do just

a handful of sprints. So I’m talking four to eight sprints of 10 to 20 seconds. Maybe

once a week, once every 10 days is fine, you will get tremendous fitness stimulation.

It’ll improve your performance at all lower levels of exercise intensity because when

When you get good at sprinting, you get really good at going medium or going comfortably,

right?

It’s just how the body works as well as perceived exertion like, “Gee, my usual running pace

feels easier because I completed a series of six sprints lasting 12 seconds and that’s

part of my training protocol now.”

So what we really need to do overall, and we’ve been talking about this in the Primal

Blueprint Fitness Model for many years, is honor our ancestral fitness experience and

our genetic expectations for these inputs, which is to move more throughout the day.

Of course, we need to get up and move, and that’s how the running boom got started.

It’s like, “Hey, it’s better than sitting on the couch running around the park or the

block is great, but if you’re doing it too stressfully, then you start to look at problems.”

So we need to move more at a comfortable pace.

Of course, we need to engage in resistance exercise where we’re working the muscles to

a point of fatigue and getting breathing hard and actually putting your muscles under load,

under challenge.

And then finally, we need to sprinkle in some brief explosive all-out sprints which have

the tremendous anti-aging and the hormonal benefits without the risk of breakdown burnout,

illness and injury that comes from an aggressive hit style training regimen, which is what most

people in the gym are doing, or an overly stressful chronic cardio regimen, which is

the running scene where people are out there jogging

at slightly too significantly too stressful of a pace

and doing it day after day after day

as they train for these glorified events

like the marathon and the Iron Man.

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Let’s get back to the podcast.

JANNINE: I’m glad you you bring this point up of the day after day after day because I think you know for a lot of people

You know, it’s it’s easy right to throw on a pair of shoes and go

But it’s just as easy it’s around a pair of shoes and walk too

But we

In our head, you know, we got to burn a little harder

We got to do this a little harder

We got to go a little harder and and really for for a lot of my patients and for myself included

one of the biggest things that happens is like you said the breakdown of

of the body when we keep pushing same things

over and over again.

Now, I wanted to hear a little bit about your take

on intensity because I do think it’s important,

but I like that you say build up to it

because I think a lot of people will think,

okay, then two days a week, I’m gonna do sprint workouts

and they’ve never sprinted before in their life, right?

So this is good to learn how to ramp it up.

Now–

BRAD: And anybody can start sprinting

because you can do it on a bicycle or rowing machine

or something that’s low impact, no impact.

It’s just getting that heart rate up and huffing and puffing

until you’re in discomfort, which if you never do that,

you’re going to use it or lose it.

And that’s the essence of aging and accelerated aging is,

yeah, back in the day, you used to be strong and explosive

and you played basketball and you did this and you did that.

And now you’re relegated to shuffling down the road.

And it’s a whole element of fitness

that’s I think widely disrespected as we prefer to engage

in the hit or the chronic endurance training.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah.

You know, I’ll admit even I thought to myself

because and I wanna get your take on this

’cause zone two cardio is the hot, the hot topic,

how to do it right, how to do it, you know,

we’ll get into that ’cause I wanna get your opinion on it.

I kind of when I went to doing that as my main cardio

in addition to my sprints, I kind of felt like

Oh, not doing enough, Brad.

I’m not getting my runners.

BRAD: The little voice inside, Jannine is whispering, what are you doing?

You’re lazy.

Come on.

JANNINE: You lazy butt.

What are you doing?

So, so let’s talk about zone two because what I do have to say and just so folks who

are, who are, you know, actively engaged in what we’re talking about here, I have seen

benefits from walking.

I absolutely have.

I’ve seen my body look a heck of a lot better than when I was trying to push myself running

a lot and biking a lot.

So let’s talk about zone two cardio.

What does zone two cardio mean to you, Brad?

And how do you coach your folks on zone two cardio?

BRAD: Yeah, I’m really pleased to see this term

and this idea rise to popularity

in the endurance training community

because the intensities are generally divided

into these five zones with zone five

being an all-out sprint and zone one being comfortable,

walking or medium risk walking or whatever,

it depends on the fitness of the person

and we’re gonna get into that shortly.

So zone two, the limit of zone two

before you bump into zone three is called fat max.

And that’s a really, really important concept

for any exerciser to understand.

And your fat max heart rate,

these zones are measured by heart rate by the way.

So it’s not just like, hey, this feels like zone four.

It’s trying to divide these things and categorize them.

So you’re exercising at a percentage of your max heart rate

and you understand where your zones are.

Of course, you can go pay for an expensive laboratory test,

but Dr. Phil Maffetone, arguably one

of the leading endurance coaches of all time.

He’s coached many world champions.

He came up with the math formula, which is 180 minus your age

in beats per minute is the fat max, or he calls it

the math heart rate.

And this is also equated with the top of the zone too.

So if one is 40 years old, like I’m not, I’m almost 60.

So let’s use me.

Hey, 180 minus 60 is 120 is my fat max heart rate estimated.

A 40 year old, 180 minus 40, would use the number 140.

And so you set the beeper alarm on your heart rate monitor.

And you realize that when you exceed 140,

you have left zone two and you’re now into zone three.

So the popularity of zone two is because you now

you’re getting a true fat burning workout

with a minimal amount of anaerobic stimulation,

stress hormones, and turning the workout

into a different category of a more stressful session.

And so you want the vast majority

of your steady state cardiovascular exercise

to be at or below the zone two fat max limit.

Why is it called fat max?

That’s the maximum number of fat calories per minute

that your body can burn during exercise.

So in vision, if you were to speed up,

of course you’re gonna burn more calories, right?

The faster you go, the more calories you burn.

When you’re sprinting, you’re burning a thousand per hour

rate, but when you’re jogging,

you’re burning 300, whatever.

But when you exceed fat max,

you start burning less fat in favor of a quick spike

in the amount of glucose or carbohydrate calories

that you’re burning.

So not to go deep into exercise physiology,

but it’s really important to get competent at that fat burning heart rate and below

so that you can be a true endurance athlete because endurance is predicated on being

good at fat burning and preserving like a gym.

If that was too wordy for the recreational enthusiasts, let’s just say that zone two

has become popular because it’s comfortably paced.

It emphasizes fat burning.

It’s not entirely fat burning.

when you go in the gym and you say, you see at 9.30 AM is the fat burning workout.

It’s not all fat, it’s just emphasizing fat and burning fat at the highest rate in the

case of fat max heart rate or the top of zone two.

And so when you can operate in these fat burning zones, you finish the workout and you feel

refreshed and energized rather than a little bit buzzed and fatigued and perhaps craving

a quick treat next door at Jamba Juice with the medium smoothie and the breakfast scone,

which we’ve done research when I used to work for the spinning company.

A spin class of 40 minutes burns around 650 calories and the medium smoothie and the

breakfast scone is like 670 or something.

So, boom, that goes down before we even get home and start to eat breakfast.

So anyway, that’s what’s good about urging people to slow down, monitor their heart

rate and emphasize this zone two.

But here’s the part where I have a huge problem with the dogma that’s happening right now

around this, is that I think zone one has been disrespected and kicked to the curb.

So now people are thinking that it’s tough enough to slow down when you see that zone

two beeper alarm going off.

It’s a very comfortable pace like you alluded to.

And so people are frustrated and saying, I feel like I’m not really getting a workout

when I’m in zone two.

But when you again make that comparison to the elite athletes, it’s anywhere in zone

one or zone two is delivering fantastic aerobic stimulation with a minimum amount of stress

or breakdown or you know recovery time needed.

And that’s how you build up comfortably and safely without that risk of overdoing it.

And here’s my other problem with zone two is that most highly motivated type A goal focused

endurance folks that that personality that that is attracted to this type of training.

Their zone two is a lot of times zone 2.3 or zone 2.4 because they just can’t seem to bring

themselves to respect that beeper alarm and then you’ll get the rationale where they said well

it was only for a couple of hills. Well it was only because at the end it got hot and my heart

rate going up, but I kept the same pace. So we have to remember that the heart rate is the

ultimate way to measure exercise intensity. It takes into account all the variables such as

if you didn’t get good sleep last night or you’re over trained, you’re going to see that reflected

in your heart rate where you might have to slow down. The other thing most people don’t understand

is we’ve been socialized to try to maintain a steady pace, but the pace per mile is irrelevant

to the body. The body only knows effort as measured by heart rate. So in the vast majority

of your workouts, you’re going to want to steadily slow down the longer the workout

goes in order to maintain a consistent heart rate or stay in the correct zone. And that’s

maybe not as much fun as checking off the miles and looking at your fancy watch that’s telling

you you’re keeping to your pace. And of course, that’s what you want to do in a race. But in

everyday training, you want to be very careful to respect the heart rate and realize that

zone one training is incredibly beneficial.

It’s just not maybe as much of an endorphin buzz as pushing that zone two and a half,

which is what most people do at the vast majority of their exercise.

It’s a disastrous way to train.

The research on elite athletes, Dr. Siler, an American based in Norway is one of the

leaders here. You might have heard of the 80/20 principle and the black hole, which is

what they call the in-between zones where it’s too difficult to be considered a fat-burning

workout or a zone two, but it’s not challenging enough to be considered a breakthrough session

that’s going to increase your fitness because you’re pushing the edge with your interval

training. Most people are going at this medium to difficult, steady state that’s too stressful

that leads to chronic overuse injuries,

suppressed immune function, problems with their hormones

and metabolic system that you see in the office,

and they’re neglecting the lower end exercise,

which is the true secret to building your aerobic capacity

safely, and then being able to handle the hard workhouse

that you occasionally throw in,

or be able to race with more competency,

because you’re so good at fat burning.

JANNINE: Oh, so many good things there.

so many good things there.

I like to hear about not kicking zone one to the curb

’cause I really do think that I’ve come to really enjoy it.

It’s a great walk, it’s a great, you know,

you can listen to podcasts on things of that nature

and just enjoy it yourself.

Just look at the neighbors, right?

Say what’s everything that’s going on,

check out your neighborhood.

Now, I think a lot of people might be thinking,

“Brad, okay, so I’m a runner.

I love running.

How do I transition from running to walking?

How do we dial it down?

Do we go straight to do do we?

Like what have you done with both

to kind of wean them off the running gig?

BRAD: Well, someone who’s an endurance runner

with goals and pretty serious

and been logging the mileage,

it’s essential to monitor your heart rate

at all the workouts.

And so now if you take this 180 minus age formula

and determine what kind of pace that equates to,

you will reveal whether you should be running or walking.

And I’m sorry to break the news to you,

but for the vast majority of even serious runners,

walking is going to be a better use of their training time

for the vast majority of their training time.

Again, I’m gonna reference the elite athletes.

We have Eluud Kipchogay, the greatest marathon runner

of all time, maybe one of the arguably,

the greatest endurance machine that’s ever been on earth.

He won two Olympic gold medals.

He set the world record and was the first person to break two hours in the marathon.

And he’s a long time leader in endurance, even back on the track in Olympic running.

And he published his training log for all the world to enjoy and analyze.

And the exercise physiologists have had a field day and they go and study him training

in Kenya.

It has been determined that he runs 82 to 84% of his weekly mileage at a zone one pace

and then another 13 or something percent at zone two and then a nice little chunk at

the top where he’s doing these phenomenal interval workouts that again you can go watch

him do eight times 1000 meters on the track in 247 or whatever sensational you know these

guys are machines when they’re able to run a marathon under two hours.

But for the most part, he is running at a pace equating to a medium or brisk walk for

a super fit person.

And we need to honor the example set by the top athletes, even more so than science,

in my personal opinion, because you can see the fitness magazines have done this for decades,

where they take a bunch of college kids in the study and they slam some interval workouts

three days a week and they lose wake and they get fitter in six weeks.

And there’s the conclusion that you should do high intensity interval training too to

get that six pack really quick.

And we’re taking these snapshots out of context without realizing that hard training works

for people who are in really great shape before they conduct that hard workout.

So to think that the greatest marathon around the planet is running along now, is he walking

for his training? No, because he’s such an incredible endurance machine that if you were

to see him running down in your neighborhood, he’s moving. He’s moving really fast. He’s

moving at 626 to 803 pace per mile during these runs. But to you and I, that’s like a

medium or even a slow walk for a big chunk of training.

JANNINE: His heart is cardiovascular.

BRAD: He’s at zone one heart rate running a six minute mile.

This is someone who runs four minutes, 34 seconds

for an entire marathon.

And so he’s running a minute and a half

to three and a half minutes slower than his marathon pace.

What is it?

43 to 68% slower or something.

It’s in the book.

if someone wants at home to calculate,

and let’s calculate a moment,

because the average marathon time

across the world of 2 million finishers is 431.

That’s a 10, 18 pace per mile.

That is a really impressive fitness achievement

to go 26 miles at a 10 minute per mile pace.

But a 10 minute per mile pace is not flying down the sidewalk.

It’s, you know, plugging along and, you know,

getting it done and getting to that dang finish line

before you collapse.

So congratulations, get that finished medal,

put it on your wall.

But in training for the marathon,

if you wanna honor Kip Chogay and do 82 to 84%

of your weekly mileage at that easy to moderate zone one pace,

let’s take 10, 18 and go 40 to 60% slower than that,

you are bumping up against the magical cutoff point

of the human gate switching from jogging to walking.

And that is 1357 per mile in most cases.

So we’re gonna say a 14 minute mile

is where you switch from jogging to brisk walk.

And so you look at your finishing time in the marathon,

you look at your math heart rate,

if you’re running six miles

and you want to keep it under 140,

what pace does that equate to?

And for the vast majority of participants,

it would be a brisk walk, maybe a slow jog

if you’re really fit and you’ve done a bunch of marathons

and maybe you can do four hours or 3.45

or whatever your time is.

But again, the average time being 430,

that means a million marathons are slower than that,

and they’re going five hours or 5.15 or 5.30 or six hours,

which is a walk in itself,

and thereby the training should be walking.

So what’s the benefit of switching

from a jogging gate to a walking gate is,

A, you’re not gonna get injured because you’re reducing

that impact trauma, and B, you’re not gonna overstress

the cardiovascular hormonal endocrine immune system

because the workout is going to stay in that comfortable

zone one or zone two heart rate.

So all that’s gonna happen is you’re gonna feel better,

you’re gonna have more energy, and I think maybe it’s a good

time to circle back to that reduction of fat as the primary

goal, we’re going to assume that’s the main goal for most runners.

What happens when you start moving more throughout the day is you get better at fat metabolism

24/7, but you don’t kick in these compensatory reactions that I talked about earlier from

overly stressful workouts, which is we could call it the Ben & Jerry’s effect, where you

do the 6 a.m. spin class and you’re going shopping at 6 p.m. for Ben & Jerry’s.

However, if you were to swap out a stressful gym workout for a one hour walk around the

neighborhood, you’d come back, you’d feel more creative, your body doesn’t feel broken

down, and your appetite, and your mood, and your daily energy level are regulated thanks

to the exercise.

And this is also human evolutionary biology.

Humans are designed to move frequently near nonstop throughout the day.

That’s our genetic mandate for health.

We have the research from the modern day hodzahn, Tanzania, where they’re walking, they’re

moving, even when they’re resting, they’re squatting, so they’re putting their body under

load, so they’re not sitting on a couch or kicking back, except for sleeping, really.

That’s our human ideal is moving moving in little ways, little tidbits here, little tidbits

there, little things do add up a lot.

If you take a one-minute break every hour to walk around the office complex or walk around

the block or whatever, these are the things that are going to contribute to your fat reduction

with more reliability than pounding out those calories with running.

And you mentioned that people have a transformation of their physique from stopping running,

slowing down to a walk and keeping that daily movement objective high,

and then hitting the high intensity where you do the true genetic signaling for muscle building and fat reduction.

JANNINE: Yeah. I mean, I can’t stress it enough how important what you’re saying is about movement.

Because so many people, like you said, kind of the Ben and Jerry’s effect, but also they

beat themselves up in the morning, the rest of the later sitting around because they’re

so tired, right? And I’ve been there before and I did CrossFit. I couldn’t function by

the time four o’clock came around, you know, I was on my feet all day doing acupuncture

in my office, but my husband would be like, “Let’s go for a walk.” I couldn’t even get

I was like a zone 0.25 because I couldn’t move.

I was so tired.

And this is a problem.

BRAD: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we have a whole chapter dedicated to this concept that the psychologists have

termed the obligate runner.

And the obligate runner is one where they don’t feel whole or complete or happy unless

they’ve completed their daily workout.

And they train themselves to a point where the exhaustion and the stress is so high that

they compromise their health.

So the obligate runner keeps going and keeps plugging away until something breaks in the

form of an overuse injury or they have actual mental health and psychological harm attributed

to their habit or their addiction.

And we touch on that a little bit.

The addiction is certainly superior to the truly destructive addictions.

And therefore, it doesn’t get enough attention in society because we really want to handle

the people with the crisis addictions. However, in fact, even worse, running is often used

as a therapeutic approach to heal from addiction because it gives you a sustained dopamine

release unlike a drug hit. And so people find, and this is quoting psychology experts, I’m

not just, I’m not just spowing this, people find that they have a better resiliency rate

when they pick up running to stay away from their previous addiction.

So all that’s wonderful and congratulations to all the people that have broken free.

But I think in general, we need to consider this idea that running or training in general

can be addictive in nature.

So that might be the Jim Rat who’s addicted to showing up at some class every morning,

whether it’s spinning a bar on Tuesday, boot camp on Wednesday,

and these things that give you that endorphin high,

which we’re all chasing,

and we all appreciate so much,

and we’re all finding that in different ways,

whether it’s using the mobile device,

or getting indulgent food, or streaming entertainment,

we’re all addicts in that sense,

and exercise is right up there on the list.

Dr. Lusstig wrote a great book called

The Hacking of the American Mind,

where he enlisted the vices and the marketing forces

behind them that are luring us

into these addictive behaviors for profit.

And the fitness world doesn’t really get a lot of criticism

up there with the cigarette world

and the social media app developers,

but it’s something to consider

whether you’ve crossed over that point

where you’re pushing yourself too hard,

you’re getting that quick and door-fin buzz,

and then the rest of your life as you describe

is paying the consequences.

JANNINE: It’s definitely not getting enough buzz.

It’s something to talk about.

And I’m glad you mentioned that.

And I think I’ve definitely teetered on that over the years.

And I know there’s definitely a lot of folks in my practice

that we try to work on it.

Now, one of the things I definitely

wanted to mention before we wrap up here is the shoe wear.

And what we’re wearing for shoes, because, guys, Brad gifted

me some poloovas not too long ago.

Used them for walking.

Amazing.

game changer for me because at the time I had kind of fell into another marketing thing.

You know, there’s been the barefoot versus the cushy foot shoes as I call them.

And my friends kept telling me, I gotta try these Altras out.

You gotta try these Altras out.

Jacked my ankles up so bad.

Avenue because the cushioning, I was so used to a zero or a barefoot style of shoe.

And then I went to the Altras and then Brett sent me the pilluvas and I went back to,

Nope, this is what I need.

So give folks a little bit of how in addition to all of the pounding of just your body weight

running running running and then now we got the cushy running shoes.

BRAD: Right.

So I’m thinking back to Fidipides and his contribution to the running boom or the poet.

I should get his name that made up that fake poem took poetical license with Greek history.

But the other, the true catalyst for the running boom was the invention of the elevated cushioned

running shoe by Nike in the early 70s.

And what this happened, what this allowed was opening the floodgates for ordinary people

to be able to take off down the road and participate in endurance running.

Because prior to the invention of the wonderful Nike Waffle Trainer shoe was really the first

one that really launched the boom. Running was too stressful. You felt it immediately

in the form of painful feet because your fit took the most brunt and the shoes were really

rudimentary. They were a firm, rigid soul with no padding. That was just the limiting

factor to where the average person could maybe only run for a mile or two. The only

people who were runners in the early days were the ex-high school and collegiate runners.

And so almost all runners back in the 70s when the running boom started were slender,

very well trained.

They had the rudimentary shoes and they were going along and running actually fast time.

So the marathon times have gotten slower and slower over the decades, which is a good thing

because that means more people are doing it, right?

It’s not criticizing anything.

but the shoes were true, an honest limiting factor.

And so when you take away that and put someone

in a cushioned shoe, what happens is the comfort

of the shoe destroys your proprioception,

your awareness of your body moving through space,

such that you cannot immediately experience

the impact trauma generated by your crappy form.

Because remember, ordinary people

taking off running five miles or three miles or 10 miles,

they don’t have the athletic competency

to run with the correct midfoot landing

over a balanced center of gravity.

Like you see a beautiful runner in the Olympics.

Instead, they’re shuffling along

with what widely observed as an over-striding,

jarring, breaking gate pattern.

And the reason for that are many,

but it’s all due to lack of fitness.

So we have tight hip flexors, tight hamstrings,

we have weak glutes, we have all this list of things

that it’s in the book and the running experts can spout

is why people run with poor form.

So the elevated cushioned shoes allowed the masses

to run with poor form without immediately sensing it

because the cushion took away from your awareness

of what is doing to your body.

By contrast, if you wanna get what I’m saying here,

If you were to take off your shoes right now

and run barefoot on a hard surface

like an indoor gymnasium or a sidewalk,

a safe sidewalk that didn’t have glass on it,

if you take off down the road

and run and barefoot on a hard surface,

you will immediately exhibit

perfect, beautiful running technique.

You’ll be as light on your feet as a deer

and you will float down the sidewalk

and you will know right away

what it’s like to run with good form

because you’re unable to take more than a few strides

with your crappy, shuffling,

breaking over-striding form.

However, in shoes, you can maintain that crappy form

for miles and miles without the immediate sensation

because the shoes just feel so fantastically comfortable.

And so we have now the super cushioned shoes

that feel like you’re cruising along the trail on pillows

for the whole day of an ultra marathon race.

Now, there is a price to pay down the line because you’re still getting that jarring

breaking stride.

You’re still dispersing the impact trauma throughout your lower extremities in an inappropriate

manner and that’s where the overuse injuries come up.

So again, this is validated by research, not just my conjecture that running shoes are

the driving cause of these massive rate of running injuries.

the exact opposite of what they’re saying in their marketing messaging for 50 years,

that these cushions shoes help ease the impact on hard surfaces. It’s the exact opposite happening

because they are allowing a bad thing to happen that would not happen if you were in bare feet.

Now, the obvious follow-up here is that because we’re doing something so incredibly unnatural

as to run five or 10 or 26 miles coming off of your desk job and putting on your shoes and hitting

down the road, you need the shoes to do it. So I’m not saying, “Hey, take off your shoes. You should

all run barefoot down the sidewalk. That’s not going to work.” Nor is it going to work to put on

some polluvas, which are our answer. You know, it’s a barefoot inspired shoe. It has some nice cushioning,

so it feels good to walk down the sidewalk, but running in them would not be a sensible idea

out of the gate for anyone because we’re not adapted to it because we spent a whole lifetime

wearing these elevated cushions shoes that ruin our proprioception that allow us and enable us to

exhibit poor technique and are the driving cause of injuries. So I think you brought up this

important element to the story because again when you slow down to a walk you can walk with great

competency in a barefoot shoe right away because you’re not risking the impact trauma and then

you’re getting your feet, your arches, your Achilles tendons stronger and more resilient,

you’re allowing them to go through the entire range of motion, which they’re not allowed to

in an elevated cushioned shoe. And that’s why the shoes are causing more atrophy and therefore

over the long term, just a pattern of repeated injuries, thanks to the shoes that you need to

do something that’s unnaturally and overly stressful for the human. 

JANNINE: So many things that were supposed

It’s just like this marketing lies.

It just kills me.

It kills me, Brad.

I’m glad that you guys did all this research for your book, Born To Walk.

It really does help us to understand.

It also helps us docs who are trying to push the walking a little bit more with our patients

to be able to walk more to get the mobility and things of that nature.

It helps us to really make the case for folks to see why.

BRAD: Yeah, you’re getting fantastic workout.

You’re getting a fantastic workout.

I mean, your heart rate is more than double.

As soon as you get up out of your chair

and walk around the block, you’re in training.

And for some reason, we’ve disrespected this

because the struggle and suffer ethos

of the fitness industry is what sells.

And so when we’re looking at a commercial for Peloton bike,

you see the person dripping in sweat and high-fiving,

the person next to them or whatever the message is,

it’s like if you push yourself hard enough,

you’re gonna get a six pack too.

And this is something that’s, it’s starting to unwind a little.

I think people are getting smarter and realizing that they can’t just go

crush workouts starting on January 1st, because on April Fool’s Day,

they’re going to end up on the sideline, injured, burnt out, tired.

So I think the fitness industry is getting more sensible.

But I also think there’s a lot of people that are too intimidated to get

started because they think the starting point is joining a marathon training

club and going from zero to six months later, crossing the marathon finish line, which is

the template for the group training programs that comprise a quarter of all marathon participants.

Again, there’s a lot of positive aspects to these things.

I’m just urging you to do it correctly and slow down and possibly make walking the centerpiece

of your life as it has been for millions of years for the human.

JANNINE: So huge, so huge.

I’m so glad that you and Mark teamed up to put this book together for folks.

It’s going to be really helpful for folks to really hear this.

Let’s tell folks where other places they can find you guys, where you, you know,

they can get some more background on it, such as your website, of course,

your podcast, all the things.

Cause I think folks are going to definitely want to jump in and learn some more.

BRAD: Right.

This, this book’s available for pre-order, but the official release day is January 7th.

You can learn more about the book at born2walkbook.com.

And you can find me on Instagram, Brad Kearns 1, and the Be Rad podcast.

And there’ll be plenty of content about this really important topic.

And again, if I came off offensive to anyone or negative about running, I want your listeners

to know that this was my life for so many years and brought me so much joy and the intensity

of competition when I was a young high school and collegiate runner and professional triathlete.

And there’s so many wonderful aspects to it, but looking back and realizing and knowing what I know

now, there’s a way to become even a great athlete and a really accomplished athlete in a way that

doesn’t destroy your health. And that’s what we want to share with everybody and starts with

moving more every day and building that baseline aerobic competency.

JANNINE: So important, so important.

I think this will be good for folks to hear.

And guys, yeah, I’ve worked with some former NFL athletes.

It’s not pretty when you push yourself to the limits

and don’t take care of it.

So hearing from Brad and other folks in the industry,

this is important.

This is important to listen to because a lot of folks

I know are listening to this podcast are in their 30s and 40s.

And for us, I’m late 40s now.

I’ve seen the injuries start coming.

And you know, Brad, and you guys, if you look at Brad online, holy cow, six pack and all,

push it and nothing–

BRAD: I know I’ve turned into a sprinter and a high jumper in my old age and my endurance days are

behind me. And the stuff that I did was quite extreme because I did it at the highest level.

So I think it’s a young person’s game in a lot of ways. And you know, my idea that the marathon

should only be 13.1 miles, especially if you’re over 40 or over 50, realize that these extreme

endurance events are a young person’s game and you have really no correlation with health or

longevity. In fact, a very strong risk and correlation with accelerated aging when you’re doing these

extreme events that are often addictive. So there’s other avenues out there to express your

competitive juices and I definitely try to stand for that now where I’ve learned like

what’s most aligned with health and longevity are things that are really fun and you know shorter

in duration in many cases and you know we glorify the marathon as the ultimate achievement for runners.

But what about improving your own 5k time at the annual turkey trot in Athens, Wisconsin and

and feeling like an athlete and feeling like you have a time and striving to improve and

doing things that make you feel good every single day as you’re training rather than

fighting that battle against fatigue and injury that most people are right on the teeter

tide or all the time.

JANNINE: I couldn’t agree more.

I couldn’t agree more.

I definitely would.

That’s where I’m at.

That’s where I’m at.

I know a lot of folks definitely are going to benefit from hearing this Brad.

Thank you so much for coming on and talking about Born to Walk.

So good.

Can’t wait for that to come out in January.

Guys, go pre-order it now.

Thanks, Brad.

BRAD: Thanks, Jannine.

Hey, fellow health junkie.

Thanks for listening to the Health Fix podcast.

If you enjoy tuning in, please help support me to get the word out about the podcast.

Subscribe, rate, and review, and just get that word out.

Thanks again for listening.

(upbeat music)