Ep 518: Finding Joy Beyond Burnout With Dr. Ben Reinking

In this insightful episode of The Health Fix Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Ben Reinking, a board-certified pediatric cardiologist, medical educator, and certified physician development coach. Dr. Ben is the founder of The Developing Doctor, a coaching business inspired by his own journey through burnout and the challenges he observed in the healthcare profession. His mission is to help healthcare professionals rediscover joy and purpose in their careers. This episode is essential for anyone—whether in the health field or beyond—feeling the pull to escape their life or career.

Resources from the Show:

• Dr. Ben Reinking’s Website: The Developing Doctor
• Instagram: @thedevelopingdoctor
• Strengths Assessments:
  • VIA Strengths
  • CliftonStrengths
• Special Offer: Use code “healthfix30” for 30% off coaching sessions and any courses.

Tune in for a practical and empowering conversation that sheds light on the burnout epidemic and offers actionable steps for reclaiming joy, purpose, and well-being.

Our Partners

Podcast Transcript

4:15 – Dr. Ben’s story

8:27 – Doctor training on self care?

9:53 – What sings does Dr. Ben see now in his progression into being burned out?

14:29 – Removing certain apps from your phone for inner peace

15:46 – Helpful tips to overcome “F it” mode

16:57 – Navigating the “learning phase” of life

18:18 – Dr. Krause’s backstory

19:19 – Leaning into your strength values

21:10 – Focusing on the destination rather than the journey

22:06 – Dr. Ben’s traits that kept him going to the point of burnout

26:53 – Fear of calling in sick or taking vacation

28:46 – Anxiety towards the end of vacation

29:!0 – Building in a buffer day before returning to work

31:08 – Techniques to overcome the day before scary’s

31:59 – Taking a lunch

34:39 – Signs of burnout

37:48 – Setting boundaries

42:30  – Guilt free choices when looking at self care

44:14 – Ben’s programs

45:22 – Emotional intelligence

48:33 – Communicating with coworkers

50:45 – Where to find Ben Reinking online

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[Preview] And I think the first thing that’s helpful is to just reconnect with who are you,

why are you doing what you’re doing and does it still bring you joy and fulfillment?

And once you can answer those questions, then it’s easier to make changes.

And sometimes the changes really are big, like blow up your life, kind of.

I need to make a huge change because this isn’t working for me.

But many other times at small, small things that we don’t even recognize

will make a big difference.

And that process of going into work and just getting the work done,

didn’t work anymore because I was doing way more than I was capable of,

capable of physically, spiritually and emotionally.

And I didn’t even recognize it until someone pulled me inside and said, Hey,

are you okay?

And you know, I hadn’t even stopped to ask myself that question.

Am I okay?

But it was just that simple question that caused me to stop and pause and say,

you know what? Really? I’m not.

JANNINE: On this episode of the Health Fix podcast.

I’m interviewing Ben Reinking.

He is a board certified pediatric cardiologist.

He’s a medical educator and certified

physician development coach, as well as the owner of the developing doctor.

He’s a partner.

He’s a stepfather, dog owner, gardener, Iowa Hawkeye fan and want to be writer.

Me too, Ben, me too.

Now here’s the thing.

I was drawn to Ben because of his coaching business.

And I feel like it’s so needed right now in the physician space,

but also in anyone who’s in healthcare, who’s a nurse,

who’s a, you know, nursing assistant, anyone front desk.

Like we in the healthcare industry are really struggling at the moment,

but I also want to extend it to folks who are just in the daily grind, right?

Unfortunately, I’m seeing a lot of clients that are coming in and telling me,

like, “Hey, Doc, I’m working the job of two or three people.

I can’t really do this.

I can’t take care of my health.

I can’t make meals.

I mean, I can’t even take breaks.

I mean, there’s so many things.”

And they’re getting to the point where they’re feeling like they need to escape

their life or career or find something else to do.

Now, if this resonates with you, this podcast is for you.

I was drawn to Ben in particular from his Instagram post that was

the lies I’ve told myself.

And really it boiled down to him saying,

I’m not a good doctor because I called in sick,

took a vacation, wasn’t available for someone who needed me.

I’ve felt that way myself.

I felt guilty to tell people I was going on vacation.

But it’s reality, right?

And I think for a lot of people,

they feel guilty about taking breaks at work.

They feel guilty about taking vacations from work.

If this is you, this podcast is for you.

And I want you to think about during the podcast, you know, whether this resonates with you

or maybe if you’re going to send it to someone, a family member, a friend that needs to hear

this, really I want you to ask, are you okay?

And if not, what needs to change to get you to feeling better?

So with that, let’s introduce you to Dr. Ben Reinking.

[Intro] Welcome to The Health Fix Podcast, where health junkies get their weekly

fix of tips, tools, and techniques to have limitless energy, sharp

minds, and fit, physiques, or life.

JANNINE: Dr. Ben Reinking, welcome to The Health Fix Podcast.

DR. BEN: Thank you, Dr. Jannine.

I’m so happy to be here.

JANNINE: Gosh, you know, I love what you do.

I’m just gonna say that.

And I also, you guys, I told them,

I was like, where were you like right about before COVID?

Maybe somewhere around 2018, 2019,

where things were really starting to, let’s say amplify

in my Dr. Burnout, Dr. Anxiety situation.

So, so Ben, tell us a little bit about how you came

to create your programs, your courses, everything you’re doing right now to help doctors who are

just struggling, let’s just say it. 

DR. BEN: Yeah, I mean, I can share a little bit of my story, but I think

really it comes down to the question like, who’s going to help the helpers, right? So we’re all

human and we all have moments when we need help. And that includes the helpers, physicians or

or whatever your role is.

So I don’t know that my story is very unique

compared to others, but I think it’s helpful to hear it.

You know, I was one of the fortunate people

where I went through my medical training

and what I was doing worked for the most part.

And I’m old enough that people didn’t really talk

about burnout when I was in training.

Everyone said it’s tough and it’s supposed to be tough,

but you can do it and get through it.

And when it’s hard, just put your head down

and keep working.

And that worked for me until it didn’t.

And so three things happened in my life

that sort of combined, I think, to just cause things to implode.

One was a positive thing.

So my partner and I had been long distance for a long time,

and we built a house.

And so it was a really great positive change in my life,

but it was also a little bit stressful.

My parents suddenly hadn’t known

unless my mom was in a tragic car accident.

Thankfully, she’s fine.

And then my dad had a diagnosis of cancer.

He also was fine now, but so big change in my personal life.

And then my professional life, I’m a pediatric cardiologist

by trade.

And we depend on this big multidisciplinary team.

And my team fell apart.

And as a result of that, a lot of the colleagues

that I’d worked with for 10 years or so

and had great relationships just left.

And so I found myself doing more work.

And all of a sudden, all of the people that I really liked seeing every day were gone.

And that process of going into work and just getting the work done didn’t work anymore,

because I was doing way more than I was capable of,

capable of physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

And I didn’t even recognize it until someone pulled me inside and said,

“Hey, are you okay?” And, you know, I hadn’t even stopped to ask myself that question.

am I okay? But it was just that simple question that caused me to stop and pause and say, you know

what, really, I’m not. And that led to me making all sorts of changes. But that was the catalyst.

JANNINE: You know, I think you brought up two really important things that happened in the medical field,

changes in team, which I see it all the time, whether practices are being dissolved and taken

over by a bigger conglomerate, or we’ve got folks moving on. It is hard. When I’ve worked in a team,

in the past. Yeah, when people would get sick, they’d leave, you know, things that happen.

It shifts the dynamic and can be very hard. And I think for a lot of people right now,

with a lot of shifts since the pandemic, a lot of people are doing two, three jobs because

the company’s not hiring someone else on. And I’m hearing that a lot in my clients. And

so their team has shifted. They’re doing more work. And it’s definitely something that,

you know, we’re like, I can do this because I think a lot of us have that like drive,

right, especially if we’re in a field where we take care of people.

But we also feel like no, you’re not even to think about am I okay?

Because and this is where my mind was when you said that, like we don’t think

about it because we’re too busy trying to survive.

We’re just trying to do the things and help the people because that’s what we do.

You know, on repeat.

Does that seem like where the mindset was before you were like, am I okay?

DR. BEN: Yeah, exactly.

I mean, I think it’s you spend so much energy just getting through the day

that it’s hard to just stop and pause.

And I think I also recognize that I had never developed

the skills that I needed internally

to even ask myself that question, right?

So I didn’t even know how, nowhere to start.

JANNINE: Yeah, same thing here.

When things were kind of hitting the fan for me, right?

Before COVID and going into COVID, yeah.

Like I had moved into my own practice.

I was solo at that point.

Nobody to like kind of realize like, are you okay?

You know?

And so yeah, I don’t think we even,

there was no mention even,

I mean, I went to naturopathic medicine school

compared to conventional medical school.

And yes, there was this program

like the first year about like taking care of yourself.

But by the time you get to the fourth year,

I think that’s out the window.

Did you guys get anything about self-care

or any training in terms of taking care of you?

DR. BEN: I don’t think we did, honestly.

I mean, I know we had some professionalism courses,

but I don’t think when I was going through,

there was much talk about self-care.

I think that really started towards the end of my training

when people realized that,

“Oh, this is a problem for providers

and it’s a problem for patients

because the providers aren’t doing well.”

JANNINE: Right, right.

And I think you just brought up a really good point.

And this is something that I do like to kind of put out

to my clients and especially for the folks

who are audience members right now.

like, guys, sometimes you’re having care by someone

who is really not okay, like does not feel okay.

Does not, you know, mentally is really burnt out

and we’ll get this, you know,

ah, the medical system sucks.

Ah, the doctors don’t care.

And it’s like, I don’t think anybody goes

into the medical field, not caring.

I think everybody wants to make a difference.

I think we end up having a hard time

being able to juggle with workload

and things of that nature.

I know you’ve seen it and–

DR. BEN: Absolutely, right, yeah.

JANNINE: It’s something that I see a lot.

Now, in your progression of how you’re waking up

and going like, “Oh man, am I okay?

“What’s going on?”

What kind of things did you see where red flags to you

about yourself in terms of your behaviors?

How the practice kind of was going,

how seeing clients was going,

like what kind of little things stood out to you?

like, oh, that’s not good.

And maybe even though it’s doctor,

it’s still relevant to anyone else out there

in the end of the existence.

DR. BEN: Yeah, great question.

And I think I didn’t recognize any of these signs

at the moment, but looking back, I was like,

wow, that’s not normal.

So one was a thought.

So I had just this fantasy of just escaping.

And so I walked to work and I would frequently wonder

walking to work like, what would happen

if I just kept walking?

Like how long would it take for people

at work to figure out that,

oh, he didn’t show up?

Like would it be new?

Would it be three?

And I was like, can I try that?

And then on the way home,

I would, I live in Iowa,

I’m in the middle of nowhere,

but I would think,

could I make it to the beach on my feet?

Like, could I just keep walking

and make it to the beach?

And how long would that take?

And it’s like kind of a comical thought a little bit,

but it also was a very real thought in my head

that I was like, how many days would it take?

Could I physically do it?

Do I need to pack a backpack?

Right?

So it was just this fantasy of escape.

Even though I was gonna show up to work the next day,

it was this fantasy of escape.

JANNINE: It’s so interesting how you mentioned that.

It is.

I’ve been there thinking, you know,

what if I just, you know,

since my practice was in Washington,

I was thinking at the time,

what if I just drove to the water and like hijacked a boat?

DR. BEN: Yeah, right.

JANNINE: I just jumped on someone’s boat.

I don’t know what would happen, you know?

How, where could I go?

– what could I do. You know?

And I have heard that from other folks.

Women that I work with in particular,

a lot of times we’re juggling this,

is it hormones or is it burnout kind of question?

Because we’ll have that,

like I’ve done with my family, I’m quitting my career,

I’m going on a retreat or a sabbatical.

And it all kind of, how do we know?

Is it hormones, is it burnout?

So I go back to the question of your walk into work,

You know, you’re thinking maybe you could get lost

in a corn maze out there and I.

DR. BEN: Right.

(laughs)

JANNINE: Maybe I could get lost and never come back.

DR. BEN: Yeah, yeah.

JANNINE: Crazy stuff like that.

What other kind of thoughts,

what other kind of behaviors and things looking back

were you like, oh, maybe that was it too.

DR. BEN: Yeah, you know, I love that you mentioned the,

is it hormones, is it burnout?

Because there definitely was a physical side for me.

So one, I was just tense all the time.

At the time I had like, had my neck hurt,

back hurt, I had headaches, and I couldn’t sleep. And so I was in this constant state of

fight or flight really, and I mean, you know, that sympathetic nervous system, which probably

we don’t understand really well and underestimate how much it affects our behavior, but that sympathetic

nervous system was just an overdrive all the time. And you can’t physically, I would not like,

our sympathetic nervous system exists to help us when we’re stressed, right? And physically,

If I’m running for my bear, I would never expect myself to keep running continually and continually

and continually. But if it’s a mental or emotional task, for some reason, we have this expectation

that we need to keep doing it over and over again. But it’s the same level of stress, and the body

has the same response to it. We don’t respond to it appropriately though.

JANNINE: It’s so wild. It’s so wild. And I think for a lot of people, it’s different habits, behaviors

they take on. So we fantasize about escaping and then we somehow end up back at work or back

in the house with the family. And then there’s this either avoidance, there’s this. I’ll go from

personal experience and see how this resonates for you. And if you’ve noticed this with yourself

or other docs you’ve worked with, there’s this avoidance of where you’re like almost to the point

shaking to look at your email. You’re like, I don’t want another thing to do today. I don’t want

to look at the email. Yeah? 

DR. BEN: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve deleted

email from my phone. And then like the next, I was like, Oh, I actually really need to access

that again. But you know, it’s sort of like trying to make this big grand gesture like,

doing it. And then oh, yes, I really have to. 

DR. BEN: Oh my gosh, that’s funny. I yeah, people get mad at

me a little bit because I don’t have my email on my phone because it was literally

like ping! ping!  And I’m like, oh my gosh, you know, and it just amplifies, you know, the experience. So

do you recommend to some of the folks you’re coaching and working with? Do you recommend for

them to like take the email and take the contact or like even the EHR off their phone so that they’re

not getting paying to all day long? 

DR. BEN: Absolutely. It’s a great suggestion. I think, you know,

We talked about these big grand gestures like escaping,

which is sort of this big,

almost blow up your life type event to get out of work,

but frequently it’s smaller things that you can do

and easily incorporate in your day

that don’t take much effort or time

that make a really big difference

and removing email from your phone is a great, great option.

JANNINE: Let’s talk about blowing up your life for a minute again,

just because it is such a big theme that I hear

and there’s the concept of midlife crisis.

Obviously we only enough to get to midlife to have it.

Cause what I saw you guys with, with, um, Dr.

Ben’s website, it’s called the developing doctor.com on there.

He’s, he’s talking about pre-med, like med students, like he’s covering all the

basis of where you could be like, I’m just blowing my life up.

Like it’s, it’s just forget about it.

So when you start thinking these thoughts, like one of the easy techniques, yes,

take the email off, take the things that notify you of different things.

What are some of the other things that you’ve really found to be incredibly

helpful when you get in that like, let’s call it “F it” mode.

DR. BEN: Yeah, yeah.

Um, you know, I, um, the hard thing is, is frequently it’s a big

systemic cause that leads to people to feel this way.

There’s some external factor that we can’t control that leads, leads to

these feelings.

Um, but frequently it’s an internal solution.

And I think the first thing that’s helpful is to just reconnect with who

are you, why are you doing what you’re doing?

and does it still bring you joy and fulfillment?

And once you can answer those questions,

then it’s easier to make changes.

And sometimes the changes really are big,

like blow up your life kind of,

I need to make a huge change because this isn’t working for me.

But many other times at small, small things

that we don’t even recognize it will make a big difference.

JANNINE: I can see that, I can see that.

Now, one of the things that I’m looking at

is in may resonate with some folks who are listening,

you know, we may be starting a new career or we may be in school and learning things.

And maybe we’re going for a master’s, maybe we’re going for a master’s, you know,

whatever it may be.

I found that when I was in naturopath school, there was still a level of like,

I want to blow up my life kind of situation there and definitely looking at the why,

right? Now, how can folks, you know, in those beginner stages, let’s say,

let’s say, haven’t got to the career you’re in the studying phase, what are some

of the things folks in that range can look at, you know, in addition to the why, but also

what are some other little tweaks that we could do when we’re in that learning phase or or

haven’t fully got to the career phase yet? 

DR. BEN: Yep. You know, I think a first step is to

focus on the things they’re not actually teaching you. So when you’re in training, you are learning

the knowledge, the skills that you need to to to practice your trade, whatever that may be.

And that is so overwhelming, but all of your identity goes into becoming that one thing, right?

And you sometimes lose the sight that you’re a whole person that had all of these other

outside interests that are being neglected because you’re trying to become, you know,

achieve this amazing incredible goal that you’ve wanted to achieve for a long time.

And so sometimes it’s reconnecting with the things outside of that one little piece of your

identity that you’ve been focusing on. So if you’re an artist, start painting again, or playing music,

or take your dog for a walk. I mean, reconnect with who you are. You’re not just what you do.

JANNINE: That is so incredible. Also, again, where were you? Where were you like 17 years ago?

And here’s the backstory, guys. I want to share this because I think it’s important to hear this.

I moved and specifically went to Bastia in Seattle because I like water. I wanted to,

I moved there because I wanted to sail.

I never sailed.

I literally just started sailing August of this year, 17 years later.

DR. BEN: Oh, that’s incredible.

JANNINE: That same concept, you know, I wanted to do this.

I wanted never did it, put it off.

So what this leads me into is the leaning into your character strengths,

leaning into your core values.

I’ve just learned about the Clifton strengths.

I don’t know if you dive into those with anybody in terms of strengths based coaching or the

VIA the values training I just did that and I was like why did I not do this like

I don’t know high school so tell us about leaning into strengths values you know the why the

tell us more about that because it’s definitely been let’s say very helpful for me to go back

to sailing and be like, I did want to do this and I’m having great time.

DR. BEN: Yeah, I love that story and I’m so glad to share it because I think it resonates with people.

I think it really goes back to, again, I’ll just kind of focus on developing a skill in medicine.

So a surgeon develops this amazing technical skill to perform a surgery.

And they spend so much time learning how to do the surgery that they think their skill of

of performing the surgery is an innate part of their being, right?

But really, what’s important is what were the pieces of themselves that allowed them

to learn that skill?

So was it curiosity?

Was it persistence?

Was it hard work?

Was it the pursuit of excellence?

So there are all these innate strengths that you brought up, whether it’s the via or the

Clifton strengths, that we rely upon to be the people that we are.

And when we start neglecting those and focusing on the things that we do rather than who we

we are, you know, it just puts us at risk for, for being pretty miserable sometimes.

JANNINE: It’s, it seems so simple, right?

It seems so simple, but we get caught up.

We get caught up.

Do you think as humans, it’s all about, you know, one wanting to keep the job, wanting

to, you know, learn more, wanting that drive in us to just keep pushing more?

What is it about us that we forget who we are?

What happens?

DR. BEN: That’s a great question and if I knew the answer,

I would share it with you.

I mean, but we are definitely wired

to focus on performance, I think.

So, or thinking about the destination

rather than the journey.

And it really takes a surprising amount of effort

to change that mindset.

JANNINE: It’s true.

We are that and I think, you know,

of course, we go to Vegas nerve, right?

And we go to fight or flight

and we’re all trying to protect ourselves from harm

and a lot of the times the harm is imaginary

as you’ve probably seen.

In your case, with performance and working on,

I mean, cardiac pediatricians, this is a big deal, right?

We’ve got little hearts, little bodies, lots to learn.

When you were working on performance drive things

so that you should, what are some of the things,

I saw on your Instagram the lies I’ve told myself,

and I laugh because I’m like, oh God, there’s so many.

But the things we tell yourself,

just one, you know, I really need this, this extra certificate.

I really need to do this training.

Give us, give us a little background on, on the things that drove you in

performance to just keep going to the point where finally you had to,

had to be like, I’m not okay.

DR. BEN: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, you know, I don’t, I’m not exactly sure what it was, what it is about me,

but I definitely have always been someone who’s just driven to, to do the

best or be the best.

And there was probably a lot of out external messaging, that kind of, that kind of, you

know, shaped that part of my being.

But I think two things have helped me along the way.

So one is the ability to say, you know what, I don’t know.

Or I’m at the limit of what I know, or I’m at, or we’re at the limit of what we know

in the field and being able to say that to myself, being able to say that to patients,

being able to say that to my colleagues is just having the power to say, I don’t know,

but let’s figure it out.

let’s use the information that we have to make the best decision possible.

And that’s pretty frame, actually, to be able to just admit that, you know what,

I don’t know something and I actually don’t have to know something,

but I just have to create a path forward, but I may not have to have the exact right answer.

JANNINE: Yeah, yeah. No, I think the I don’t know is to drive us. I think the strengths,

you know, when I did the Clifton strengths analysis, I kind of looked at it and was like,

Okay, I can see where part of this could go negative instead of positive.

We’re like, my top five strengths, one of them was learner.

Another one was acheiver.

And I’m like, well, we can see where this could go from.

You know? 

DR. BEN: Right?

Yeah.

JANNINE: Did you do you do your Clifton strength?

Do you know yours in terms of– [Advertisement] Hey, how chunky is time for a little break here.

Wanted to tell you about Ben’s programs.

Dr. Ben has programs for pre-med students, med students, and/or physicians.

Now, here’s the thing.

I asked him about and I was like, well, what if someone is a nurse?

What if someone is in the medical field?

He said, definitely these programs could apply.

So I wanted to share with you, you know, just in the event that maybe this

resonates with you, you can be a naturopathic doctor and acupuncturist.

These can resonate with you, but also if you know somebody or you know somebody

your family that really could benefit from this information. Think about medical students,

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on themselves to be able to care for folks without causing harm to their own health?

I wish I had this stuff when I was starting out at school 17 plus years ago. So nevertheless,

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So if you know someone or you yourself may need a little help, check out Dr. Ben’s courses.

It’s good stuff there and something that definitely could save you in the career if

you’re dabbling on thinking about quitting.

And if you know someone or maybe your own doctor is really struggling, it doesn’t hurt

to give him a little hint to say.

All right, let’s get back to the podcast.

DR. BEN: Yeah, I did the VIA strength, so very similar thing.

And one of my top strengths was persistence, which exactly

like you said, that can you can overuse a strength

and that can turn into a negative thing.

And for me, what helped me in that specific scenario

was one of my other strengths was just

the appreciation of excellence and beauty.

And so one thing that I then focused on was at my coach

at the time told me, you know what,

why don’t you use this strength a little bit

on your walk into work and just look for one thing

that you think is beautiful on the walk into work.

And it sounds so cheesy, but it worked.

It changed my mindset walking into work

and I was focused on this amazing thing that I saw

and not like walking into the corn maze

like we talked about earlier.

JANNINE: You know, I think that’s such, I also had the excellence in beauty.

And I like that one.

I kind of was confused as like, how do I use this one?

But that makes sense, finding beauty.

And I think a lot of people will say, oh, well, I live somewhere boring.

I’m like, come on, there’s beauty everywhere.

You just got to look for it.

DR. BEN: Yeah.

I mean, I’m in Iowa, right?

We don’t have a coastal mountain.

So– JANNEINE: You know, and a lot of people would think the Midwest is super heck.

Like just boring is all get out, right?

But corn, corn, the rose, I’m looking outside because I’m currently in Wisconsin right now

because I spent half my time in Wisconsin. And I’m looking outside, they just cut the corn.

I’m missing it. I like how the rose look. I think I like how it’s ways. So, you know,

I guess prop for the Midwest guys. It’s not, there’s beauty everywhere.

There’s not anywhere. 

DR. BEN: Yes.

Yes.

JANNINE: Now, one of the things back to the lies I’ve told myself, you know, you had an Instagram

post and guys, I’m going to kind of try to quote it as best as I can. But it was like,

I’m not a good doctor because I called in sick.

Now this is something a lot of people are afraid to take sick time.

They’re afraid they’re going to be judged for it.

They’re, you know, there’s, there’s so many things and there’s also the people need me.

And one of the biggest things that happened in my mind over the whole course

in my career is I cannot call in sick and I, and I felt guilty telling people I was taking

vacation.

I literally felt like I was letting them down.

Did you have this experience?

DR. BEN: Absolutely. I mean, I’m embarrassed to say that I have like 500 hours of banked vacation time,

right? Because I just don’t, I don’t use it as much as I should. And yeah, it’s hard. It’s a

struggle to prioritize, prioritize yourself. And I think in healthcare, whether you’re

self-employed or whether you’re employed by a hospital system or university,

There’s also a little bit of pushback when you take vacation because then or take time away because you come back and none of that work is usually covered.

And so you come back and you almost pay for being on and so learning how to to deal with that.

It is is a skill that honestly I’m still working on.

JANNINE: I’m I’m so glad to hear you say that I really am because I I’m the same there there isn’t a great system.

in the medical field for if you do leave your,

it’s got your emails are gonna build up.

And I think for a lot of people,

that’s true in any career, really,

the emails are gonna build up.

No matter if you put a responder on there,

they’re still gonna show up.

And then there’s the different labs are gonna come in,

people’s imaging it, reports are gonna come in,

it’s all gonna be there.

And at the end of vacation,

has this ever happened to you

where you start to get anxious?

DR. BEN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The last two days of vacation aren’t great sometimes, right?

Because you just know what you’re going to walk back into.

And so my solution for that is I just take longer vacation.

So I have seven really great days rather than five great days and two bad days, you know what I mean?

JANNINE: That’s a great, I mean, that’s thinking of it that way is amazing.

Because I think I actually started doing this, making sure that I had like a day or two before I went back

because I could adjust.

But I think a lot of people don’t think about that,

because they’ll like literally fly in that night

and back to work the next day.

And maybe we need to be thinking about the buffer zone.

DR. BEN: I love that.

Yes, absolutely a buffer zone is so important

so that you can have your time away and truly be away

and not worry about what’s gonna happen when you come back.

A ramp up and a ramp down kind of thing.

JANNINE: I like that because I mean, honestly,

and maybe this has happened to you too with vacations.

I mean, I’ve been in two to three days

before I can actually relax.

I feel I’m still thinking like,

“Did I check off on that lab?

Did I send that patient that message?

Did this happen?

Is that kind of how your brain works too?”

DR. BEN: Absolutely.

It’s so hard to let go of the to-do list.

And so it takes a while to wind down.

JANNINE: I think a lot of people can resonate with this.

You guys don’t have to be doctors

to have these kinds of things and have the scaries.

I mean, the scaries even for a lot of people

happen on Sundays if they have the weekend off. Now,

for a lot of medical providers, some folks, especially if you are in the

hospital system, you’re working on the weekend. Now,

when your particular practice, do you work on the weekends or are you off on

weekends?

DR. BEN: It depends on the week. So I’ll have weeks where I,

I’m just Monday through Friday and other weeks where I’m on, uh,

seven days in a row. Yeah. 

JANNINE: Okay. Okay.

And this is something that I wanted to bring up because there’s a lot of

nurses that listen to my podcast and they’ll be working schedules like that.

as well. And they’ll find that day before the seven day stretch that there starts to

be a little more anxiousness, a little bit more thought process coming into and going,

I’ve got to do this again. Do that again. Do that again. Do that. What kind of, what kind

of things have helped you in that? I’m going to call it Sunday scariest, but it could be

the pre work day scariest whenever it shows up. What kind of things have you employed

to help folks out? 

DR. BEN: Yeah. You know, we, um, I think we’ve developed

just some traditions as a family that try to just make Sunday special.

So we’re focused on sort of those traditions rather than what’s coming on Monday.

And so one thing we do is we just have Sunday supper and whoever’s around,

we have some extended family in the area.

And so whoever’s around comes over and we just hang out and have dinner,

break bread, so to speak.

And I think that that’s really worked for me because then that becomes a focus

of Sunday and not what’s going to happen on Monday.

I think when I go to bed, you know, I still probably think about work,

but my mind, mine’s that’s so different.

just because we have that ritual on Sunday.

JANNINE: That’s huge.

I mean, that used to be a tradition for years and years.

A lot of people would do this Sunday.

It’s suppers and I think we should bring it back.

I like that.

I like that.

DR. BEN: Absolutely.

JANNINE: Cool.

I might have to figure that out over here and do some things like that.

Now, another, you know, aspect of lies we tell ourselves is that we can’t take breaks

during the day.

And a lot of folks, I always will tell folks like, Hey, you know, by law, you get

a 15 minute break every four hours and you do get a lunch break.

Like that is by law.

However, it seems in the medical field, if you walk around and look,

you’re going to see people on their computer eating as fast as they possibly

can, shoving food in between patients.

Like I see it all the time.

Um, what are some of your, your, your things there in terms of creating boundaries?

And we’ll talk about boundaries in a little bit here around breaks and,

and working on that kind of stuff.

DR. BEN: Yeah.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of eating lunch away from your desk.

I, again, I struggle to do that sometimes, but even if it’s just 15 minutes,

especially this time of year when it’s, you know, beautiful outside for most

people, like getting outside and getting some sunshine and just, you know,

eating your lunch outside is a great, a great thing to do.

It’s also a great way to build camaraderie.

So I’m fortunate that I have several colleagues that I work with, you know.

So I’m able to grab someone and be like, Hey, let’s just go grab a cup of coffee

and take a few minutes and just connect over the football game coming up or what

whatever it is that we’re excited about.

JANNINE: That’s right, you are a Hawkeye fan, is what I thought.

DR. BEN: I’m a Hawkeye fan, that’s right, yeah.

JANNINE: There you go, there you go.

I mean, you guys could talk about the Ohio State,

you could talk about, you know, Michigan,

you got a lot of folks in that department,

you guys could be talking about, good to deal it.

And some rivalries, maybe if you’ve got some folks

from other states, so, you know,

falls a good time of year, I think,

to take breaks and talk about, yeah, football,

talk about, you know, whatever else interests pumpkins.

I don’t know. 

DR. BEN: Pumpkins, yeah.

Yeah.  

JANNINE: Pumpkin pack.

DR. BEN: Trick or treating, yeah.

kids are picking out their Halloween costumes, right?

So 

JANNINE: Right.

Right.

We got lots of things to talk about.

So I, you know, and I think a lot of people are genuinely curious about who’s

doing what.

And so one of the things I like to bring up is like talk with people versus

scroll on Instagram or Facebook to see what they’re doing.

DR. BEN: Yeah.

Put your phone down on almost 15 minute breaks.

Yeah.

JANNINE: Right. Right.

So, you know, really, we’ve talked about a lot of like the main things that

happen with folks, but one of the bigger things, you know, back to is it

hormones or is it burnout? I think for a lot of people, we think about burnout as being like the end point where we’re about to blow up our life and we are literally at our

what’s end, whether it’s fatigue, whether it’s anxiety, whether there’s, you know, some sort of mental health kind of disturbance going on, whatever it may be. What are some of the other subtle signs?

just to give folks a little clue of what are some of the other subtle signs where maybe we’re not

ready to blow our life up, but we’re starting to head towards burnout. What may be some things

that we could look for, we could identify, and kind of pull it away a little bit from being hormones

versus burnout. 

DR. BEN: Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, just putting it into buckets, there’s like the

physical, emotional, and sort of spiritual bucket. So physically, I mentioned like one of my

difficulties was sleeping. So I think change in sleep habits is a big one. Change in appetite.

And what I’ve encountered, which is interesting is people have the interest to do things still,

unlike, you know, some other other conditions like depression where the interest has gone.

People have the interest to do something, but they don’t have the energy to. So you go home

and you think, oh, I really actually really want to go to a run, but I just can’t. I’m exhausted.

I think emotionally, it’s probably varies from person to person, but I would say if you’re a

little bit shorter than you used to be and you notice that people maybe are avoiding asking you

questions is one. And maybe just a little bit of feeling anxious or feeling down. So, kind of just

a change in your mood. And spiritually, I would say it’s just that sense of, I just kind of don’t

care, you know, and whatever your belief system is or whatever it is that’s important to you,

you just kind of notice that I just don’t care that much right now.

JANNINE: I think the I don’t care is really important to touch on because it showed up in my world where

I love cooking. I was a super foodie. I at one point had a website called recipe whisper back.

way in the early days of the internet and things.

And oddly enough, I stopped cooking.

I just was like, I don’t care what I eat anymore.

In fact, the appetite change, I didn’t even care to eat.

I would not eat all day partially because I was like,

well, I don’t have time to eat during the damn too busy.

So I’m just not going to.

And then it would turn into get home

and like Mama Bear tears apart the house, right?

DR. BEN: Right, right, right, yeah.

– Yeah.

JANNINE: So, I mean, these are just little things guys.

I wanna put out there things that I’ve experienced

and Ben’s laughing,

’cause I’m sure he’s seen that with folks

or maybe himself in that case.

But it’s a really big one, I think,

for a lot of folks to notice in terms of that,

I don’t care, like, I don’t care what we eat.

I don’t care where we go for dinner.

I don’t really, like, decision fatigue maybe

is another man’s decision.

DR. BEN: That’s exactly a great way to phrase it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JANNINE: Yeah, it’s wild.

So guys, it’s something to kind of differentiate

because I feel like hormones have a little bit more

of a spice to it.

Whereas this is more like situational,

like you can tie it in,

but you can also see the fatigue of like decision fatigue,

life fatigue, physical fatigue is where kind of,

I would see things I’d get home.

Yeah, after I like pillage the kitchen, I would crash.

And then wondered why I gained a bunch of weight.

DR. BEN: Right, right, yeah.

JANNINE: This, this is, yeah, this is what’s happening.

Now, one of the things I mentioned before we hit record

was looking at how doctors are somewhat treated.

And guys, I am gonna go on a little bit,

I’m not gonna call it a rant,

I’m gonna say it’s a public service announcement

for how you treat your doctors.

One of the big things I had mentioned too, Ben,

was that sometimes folks will call me multiple times

’cause their prescription didn’t go through.

And, you know, I explained that I did my job, I swear.

I mean, I have gone to the point,

but I will, I won’t lie that sometimes I’ve gone

to the point where I screenshot my EHR system

showing people that it’s been put in.

Because it’s one of those things that in the system,

sometimes things work a little slower right now,

whether it’s referrals, what it not.

And it, it’s one of those things where, yes,

I may be more sensitive ’cause I’m still coming out

of burnout phase. And you can speak to that because sometimes we can blow

other things off. But it’s also here is where we’re at boundaries. And I

think for a lot of people with burnout, we we’ve lost some of our

boundaries. We’ve stepped over some of our boundaries. And this is

where another thing that I think is really important to talk about

because having someone have so much access to you. Yes, my my

particular practice is that way because I’m solo. But at the same

time setting boundaries because I probably wouldn’t be annoyed by this if I had better

boundaries around these things. So share the boundaries situation and going down that

route.

DR. BEN: Yeah. So I guess I’ll have a couple thoughts. So the first one is just sort of a recommendation

for people and health care is hard for patients. I mean, our health care system, no matter

what your role is, is a little bit dysfunctional. And that’s very true on the patient side,

it’s also true on the provider side. And physicians, nurses, therapists are really employees in the

system. Even if you’re even if you’re self-employed, you’re still really just a cog in a big system.

And the amount of control that you have over what happens is really small. But because we’re in a

position of decision making, it seems like we have control over everything, but really we don’t.

And so one thing that I love, a good tactic for patients,

if they are frustrated and they just need something

accomplished, is to start with a question and say,

hey, where’s my prescription at?

Or hey, how can I get this appointment scheduled?

Rather than I need my prescription right now,

or I need this appointment right now.

So I think starting with a question

is just really helpful because it sets an amicable tone

for everyone.

So that would be my advice for when

you need something from a provider,

just start with a question that’s really helpful.

On the provider side, boundaries are hard.

I mean, it’s really hard because we went into this field to help people and you just want to help them all the time.

And so I think setting expectations.

So one is, you know, when people get an email, you having an automatic reply that says,

I will respond to your message within 24 or 48 hours.

and if this is urgent, you know, contact the appropriate urgent clinic, right?

And so setting an expectation that, hey, this isn’t going to meet immediate response,

I think is really helpful. Number two is when you’re in a position to be able to turn things off,

whether it’s remove the EMR from your phone or even carry just a personal phone and a professional phone

or something, you know, physically setting boundaries so that that tendency that we all have to just do

five more minutes of work is you have a block there where you can’t just do five

minutes of work.

JANNINE: Oh, so huge. So huge. Can I hear that from folks in all industries? You know,

with the the block blocking off the time and being like, this is when I’m done.

This is the do not disturb. I like the do not disturb thing on the iPhone. It has

helped me immensely to not have that like, yeah, five more minutes. Oh, let me just

deal with this. Oh, let me with like, and you question yourself because you’re like,

I could I deal with it tomorrow.

DR. BEN: Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

JANNINE: Nine times out of 10.

Yes.

Yes.

And of course in the in the medical field, we do have to have that, you know,

emergency line and at least to call it the bat phone when I used to carry

around two phones before there was a phone forwarding thing.

So so amazing.

Um, phone forwarding, but nevertheless, it is important to think of those

distinctions.

And I like that.

I like that for folks now back to one of the other things that you had on

Instagram that I absolutely loved was the guilt-free choices to prioritize your

well-being because being an empathetic person, I think a lot of people are, a lot

of people have empathy for others, what they don’t even have to be in the

the medical field. I think there’s a lot of this like how do I prioritize

myself? What are some of the guilt-free choices that you’ve used and and

recommended to your folks to choose in looking at self-care and things of that nature.

DR. BEN: Yeah. I think empathy is a great word for that. And so frequently, what I will do for myself and

what I recommend to others is, would you give that advice to a friend? So, you know, if you’re

feeling guilty about taking a vacation and a friend came up to you and asked, “Hey, I’m thinking I’m

I’m going to go on this vacation.

I’m so excited about it.

What would you tell them?

And what are you telling yourself?

And so if your self-talk is very different

than what you would tell someone else,

then reassessing that self-talk is really important.

JANNINE: Yeah, self-talk, ooh, it’s impossible.

We’ll tell others to do, but we can’t seem to take

that advice for ourselves.

And especially, I don’t know how it is for men,

but for women, we can’t seem to take our own advice.

It is– 

DR. BEN: Yeah.

Probably it’s, there are different struggles,

but I think that is universal probably, right?

(laughs)

JANNINE: Absolutely, absolutely.

Now let’s talk about your website a little bit

and your programs and how you’re helping folks.

So the developing doctor, I’m gonna pull up the website.

So I have it here on the front so you guys

will see me kind of looking off to the side.

But you’ve got courses for pre-med, medical students,

training, physician, I mean, you’ve covered all your bases

in the medical field.

Give us a little scoop about what you were thinking

and creating all of them.

And did you do surveys

or were you working off of your own personal experience?

DR. BEN: Yeah, it was largely based off of my own personal experience.

So my experience going through the medical system

and then I’ve always worked in academic medicine.

And so in that role, I’ve helped with,

promotions advisory, kind of onboarding students,

mentoring, coaching students.

And so from those interactions,

I just recognize that there’s a whole skill set

that we are lacking when we leave medical training

that’s really necessary to function

in the healthcare system in a way that’s healthy.

And so finding a way to kind of develop those skills

is what the goal of my coaching,

what my courses are,

so things like communication, emotional intelligence,

leadership, self-care, recognizing your values.

So a lot of the things that we’ve talked about

are things that we really focus on.

JANNINE: It’s interesting to hear you say emotional intelligence.

You know, it’s one of those things that I haven’t really

heard about and learned about until the last couple of years.

And I know it wasn’t in my, my training.

And people will think last year, you know, we would have done all these different

things. And then the truth is, is as I think that

Bastyr was trying so hard to, to keep us very close to the medical school

training, a lot of people don’t think that.

But the truth is, is I think they were trying so hard that they over

compensated in the medical school training and didn’t give us as much of

the heart center training that I would have probably benefited from,

especially this emotional intelligence,

because I didn’t have anyone coming in telling me to process my emotions,

how to think about our emotions.

Explain how you’re working with folks and teaching emotional intelligence to

the medical field or providers and things of that nature.

DR. BEN: Yeah.

I think the thing that surprises me is that we have difficulties identifying

your own emotions.

And that’s really the base of emotional intelligence.

So sometimes it’s something just as simple as naming what you’re feeling.

Trying to do that without judgment is hard, um, but sort of naming what you’re

feeling. And that’s just a great place to start.

And if you notice that you’re, the emotions that you’re feeling are limited to two

or three, then that’s probably a place to work, right?

Because we all have more emotions than angry, happy, sad.

And so, um, if you’re feeling angry, are you really angry or are you anxious?

Or, you know, what is it that you’re really feeling that’s making you feel

tense that makes you think you’re angry. And so working on that skill is really the first

step that I encourage people to focus on.

JANNINE: I like that. Yeah, I think for many of us, I’m like, where’s this training in grade school?

You know, where’s this training in like preschool? Like all of these things I’ve learned in

the last, you know, I will say since I will admit that since I went through my own burnout

just around COVID, I mean, I think it was all of these things to my mind. I’m like, why

“Are we not teaching this to preschoolers

so that they can process emotions better

and not end up with some of the things

that’s adults or little quirks we have?”

DR. BEN: Yeah, yeah.

And I think so much of our training and healthcare

and I think other fields is focused on the client,

so the patient.

And so we learn how to communicate with the patient

and we learn how to deal with their emotions,

but we don’t really learn how to communicate

with our colleagues or with our coworkers

and we don’t learn how to communicate with ourselves.

And so that’s really what, what I think is at the core of emotional intelligence.

Yeah.

JANNINE: Absolutely.

I mean, self communication first and foremost.

And I think also just losing a little bit of an, and this is kind of maybe

something that maybe you talk about in your courses is this, this facade that

ever, that we are okay, everything’s okay.

And we’re strong if we don’t have these symptoms and, and, you know,

trying to be strong with your coworkers.

Like, I’m fine.

Everything’s fine.

I’m, I’m tough.

I got this.

It’s I found that when I worked in a in a clinic, um, medical setting where I was

the naturopath and there was medical doctors I was working with and other

different providers.

And I felt like on days where, you know, you were just like, I have to suck it up

but your cup, you know, like don’t let them see you cry.

Like, not good, you know, but, but it does feel like that is still to some point, um,

in the field where we do feel like we’ve got to have like that protective barrier.

What are you recommending with folks to work on that and really work on communication with

fellow coworkers when you’re just like, I got to tell somebody I’m not doing all right?

DR. BEN: Yeah.

It’s hard, right? Learning those skills is hard. But I think, again, starting with the question

and if it was, let’s say, just say it was a difficult interaction.

Rather than assuming that you know what the other person was feeling and what they were thinking during the interaction,

just start with the question and say, “Hey, I felt really uncomfortable about our last conversation.

How did you feel?”

And so opening up the door to just talk about feelings as well as the facts of the situation,

but just opening up the door with a question and asking how other people feel is a great place to start.

JANNINE: Sounds like questions are the way to go here.

Ask your doc a question versus demand.

I don’t know.

And ask a question with coworkers.

It’s so, it’s so important.

I think it takes down the level of intensity.

Let’s put it that way versus a statement.

The question definitely brings in the empathy too.

I like that.

Good stuff, good stuff.

Man, Dr. Ben, I wish you were around 17 years ago with us

to get me on the right foot in my practice,

But nevertheless, you’re here for all of us now.

And I mean, I looked through the website extensively

and was just loving it.

I’m like, wow, this is great.

I feel like this should be a foundational program

for anyone that’s in the medical field.

Now, of course, I’m going to ask you the question.

I know it’s geared towards physicians.

Do you take nurses?

Do you take massage therapists, acupunctureists,

naturopaths?

DR. BEN: Absolutely.

I mean, really, I speak about physician

because that’s my lived experience.

And so it’s hard for me to talk about others, you know,

experiences in a way that feels genuine,

but the pain points are really similar

for everyone in healthcare and honestly,

probably for anyone in the service industry

where we’re helping others.

And so I’m happy to talk to anybody

that’s experiencing burnout and see if I can help.

And if I’m not the right person,

I know plenty of people that I can point them to

that would be able to help them out.

JANNINE: That’s awesome.

All right.

So let’s tell folks where they can find you online.

Of course, it’s thedevelopingdoctor.com,

but what about Instagram, LinkedIn, those guys,

what are your handles there so folks can find you?

DR. BEN: Yeah, so all of them are developingdoctor

or you can just look me up Ben Reinking.

I’ve got personal and professional pages

and the content is very similar in all of them.

Yeah, and I’d love to connect with people.

JANNINE: Awesome, I love it and you’re still practicing.

DR. BEN: Correct, I’m a full-time physician

so I work full-time in pediatric cardiology

and then I have this coaching business

was just kind of grew out of my personal experience

and is now something that is really fun for me to do.

JANNINE: That’s awesome.

I mean, there’s not, I mean, your specialty is unique

with pediatric cardiology and if folks are in Iowa,

are we Ames, Iowa?

Where?

DR. BEN: Iowa City, Iowa City.

JANNINE: Okay, okay.

‘Cause I’m like, I don’t remember where the Hawkeyes are.

DR. BEN: University of Iowa.

JANNINE: There we go.

There you go, guys.

I’m embarrassed that I couldn’t get that one out.

I should know better.

grew up in the Midwest. So, nevertheless, if you’re looking for a pediatric cardiologist as well,

we’ve got a great one here. But nevertheless, man, Dr. Ben, thank you for what you’re doing.

This is awesome. I’m definitely going to be sharing this with all my doctor pals because

let’s face it, but it’s not real. It’s definitely impacting a lot of folks and

we got to do something about it. Got to share the spread the word. Thank you for coming on.

DR. BEN: Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I learned a lot from your

story as well so I appreciate you sharing it.

JANNINE: Oh my pleasure.

[Outro] Hey fellow health junkie. Thanks for listening to The Health Fix Podcast. If you enjoy tuning in,

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Subscribe, rate and review and just get that word out. Thanks again for listening.